<p>Ok, we get that cross-admits don't choose Princeton. Who cares. Prove that it's /because of eating clubs/.</p>
<p>I suggest that, rightly or wrongly, they are a troubling factor for those not applying who otherwise might, or for cross admits who choose to matriculate elsewhere.</p>
<p>I do not doubt for a minute that the study and the focus groups recently commissioned will show that this is so to a measurable extent.</p>
<p>Part of the changes planned, at great expense, in housing arrangements, are intended to marginalize the role historically played by the "eating clubs."</p>
<p>In the meantime, I have no obligation whatsoever to "prove" anything to you. If Princeton shrinks from reform in this area (which I doubt that it will) the direct beneficiaries will be its elite rivals for top students.</p>
<p>I advise Byerly to turn to the thread we had on this two weeks ago. His points have been addressed in detail elsewhere.</p>
<p>As I mentioned the last time we had this discussion, Princeton's eating clubs are a dominant aspect of the social life in large part because many of them are non-exclusive. Anyone who wishes to be a part of a club can join one. At Harvard, all of the clubs are exclusive. Hence, a majority of students cannot be a part of them.</p>
<p>The Princeton eating clubs are now classified as much by interest as by social position. While some clubs are considered more "elite" than others, I doubt that even the Ivy club has the kind of mystique surrounding the Harvard's Porcellian.</p>
<p>Byerly, if they don't go to Princeton where else would they go if not HYPSM? The students who go to all these schools are the top students. Do you expect them to go to community college instead?</p>
<p>And I am glad that Princeton is continuing to grow and evolve. Being one of those WASPs, sorry prettyfish, I am happy to see the changes. And I imagine most of the alumni from my year and later feel the same way.</p>
<p>Be careful B. or you will get me started on how I cried with sentiment and happiness at my 25th Reunion to see how diverse Princeton has become. I read that Amherst, yes Harvard, and Princeton have the best graduation rates for African Americans among elite unis....</p>
<p>i prefer a social system that involves the vast majority of upperclassmen - and ALL upperclassmen who WANT to be part of it - to one that involves only the small fraction of males lucky enough to be deemed "tap-worthy" (decisions surely based more on social than academic factors) by the previously-tapped ruling class. but that's just me.</p>
<p>Lets keep in mind that the Eating Clubs are NOTHING compared to Harvard's Finals Clubs or Yale's Secret Societies in terms of elitism.</p>
<p>Actually, two months ago, I received a phone call from an anonymouse research group working for an "ivy league school". They agreed to pay me $125 dollars to go to a discussion about college. I got there, and after two hours of discussing colleges, I realized that this was the group of kids from the Bay Area who were accepted into Princeton but ultimately turned down Princeton. Princeton hired this research group to find why we turned them down. Guess what the #1 reason was? </p>
<p>Social Heirarchy
(quite a bit of talk about eating clubs. no one there liked it and all thought that it was high-school like.. Princeton gives this elitist attitude that is only worsened by the eating clubs) </p>
<p>Princeton is obviously working hard to try to get rid of this image and is willing to pay us to do it.</p>
<p>Hahaha They paid you...HAHAHAHAHA</p>
<p>DiamondT...just wondering do you have any idea of why you write or are you just randomly spouting crap? I am sorry but if you have never visited Princeton and experienced an eating club, you can't say anything about it. They really are NOT elitist at all. What? Half of them accept anyone that wants to join. The other ones act a little more like frats and sororities...just like MOST schools in the nation? lol.</p>
<p>Big deal it was the last school to accept blacks? Today its very diverse. And besides...Colonial is the biggest eating club on campus and gets the most sign ups each year. If you want to be in an eating club...you can be in one. lol. Everyone can join an eating club.</p>
<p>And thats not true that Campus is the most diverse. Most asians join quad. A lot of blacks were orginially in cannon which closed cuz they ran out of money due to too much drinking (lol). Campus is pretty much "the band" at Princeton. And if you know anything about Princeton's Joke Band....yea....But anyways, they tried to take over campus for one year but campus has been dying for a long time and no one could get them to join. If you are looking for the most diverse...go to colonial. And hispanics...well there arent very many hispanics at any of these schools but they are pretty much spread out.</p>
<p>And sry...Id rather be an elitist like prettyfish than a spouting ignoramus like you. Honestly, there are those who make an effort to create valuable conversation here on CC and contribute good information. Byerly does have a lot of good info, but also creates lotsa controversy (lol sometimes funny sometimes very annoying). If you have nothing to contribute besides say wrong things about a school on its own forum...
1) please research
2) stop posting random nonsense.</p>
<p>For y'all information.</p>
<p>Princeton kids are attraced to the bicker systems of the selective eating clubs, not the SIGN-IN ONES. Bicker clubs, generally, are better quality then non-selective clubs. Hence, this whole eating club scene fosters a sense of elitism and division among students. If you guys think im a fool, then read the several DailyPrincetonian articles on this issue. </p>
<p><em>Im to lazy to provide links to them, but you can search the archives on their website</em></p>
<p>Actually, a lot of students dont bicker. Roughly 29-30% of the student population of each class bickers.</p>
<p>And actually Ivy (bicker) is known for the best food (obviously u pay the most) Colonial (non-bicker) is second.</p>
<p>there are many black students in cap & gown - many more than in campus, i'd venture - and cap is a bicker club.</p>
<p>to interject here - about all this Princeton is for white people business...Princeton has an incredible finaid policy that supports many financially troubled minorities. "Princeton is for white people" may have been true a long, long time ago but it certainly is not today.</p>
<p>DiamondT - "Princeton kids are attraced [sic] to the bicker systems of the selective eating clubs, not the SIGN-IN ONES." You have no proof of that at all. "Bicker clubs, generally, are better quality than non-selective clubs." Actually, many bicker clubs became sign-ins hoping to attract more people. "This whole eating clubs scene fosters a sense of elitism and division among students." They form a unity within the clubs as they do within residential colleges. As far as they can, they make sure that anyone who wishes to join a club can - those who need finaid can get subsidies for their club fees. Keep in mind also that these student run organizations provide meals, computer hubs, study halls, sports facilities to all of the majority who join. Proportional to their total numbers at Princeton, minorities join in roughly equal proportions with caucasians. </p>
<p>"If you guys think im a fool"
I don't think you're a fool. I do think that for some reason I can't fathom, you are very dedicated to bringing down Princeton with posts full of sensationalist comments, bringing all stereotypes together in a confusion of assumptions and allegations. The concept of clubs is easy to spin any way you desire, and if you desire so much to hate them without really knowing about them, then that's really your problem.</p>
<p>If anyone care to hear first-hand stories about the ignomy, segregation, disrespect, and general rough treatment that we receive (I'm speaking as one of those unfortunate minorities at Princeton), you can talk to ... well, not me, because I don't have anything to tell you. Perhaps Mr. Diamond can concoct something to your fancy?</p>
<p>...The eating clubs have been around for ages, how on earth would they decrease yield rates if they've always been there?</p>
<p>"Here's the difference: the "final clubs" at Harvard and the "secret societies" at Yale include only a tiny minority of undergrads and can be safely ignored by those having no interest without fear that they will be socially scarred."
Ok, what? So Princeton's Eating Clubs are more elitist BECAUSE they involve a HIGHER percentage of the student body?</p>
<p>As for this **** about Princeton mistreating minorities, the Junior Class president is Gay AND Black. Even the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education (<a href="http://www.jbhe.com/features/36_leading_universities.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jbhe.com/features/36_leading_universities.html</a>) has Princeton ranked as the top ivy (and third nationally) for its "relative success in attracting, enrolling, and graduating African-American students as well as their progress in bringing black professors to their campuses."</p>
<p>The notion that "Princeton is for white people" was true, just as it was true for Harvard, Yale, Duke and virtually every other great American university. If anything, Princeton has been more progressive than its peers as this review of The Long Journey Home (Africa World Press) indicates (<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Epaw/archive_new/PAW04-05/09-0223/notebook.html):%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW04-05/09-0223/notebook.html):</a></p>
<p>"Washington also learned that blacks were part of the Universitys educational history long before the first African-American undergraduates were admitted. In 1774, two free blacks, John Quaumino and Bristol Yamma, came to the college and trained to become missionaries, receiving instruction from then-President John Witherspoon. Two decades later, former slave John Chavis studied religion at Princeton before becoming a Presbyterian minister. Newspaper articles refer to blacks attending lectures during James McCoshs time on campus, shortly after the Civil War, and Alexander Dumas Watkins became Princetons first black instructor in the late 19th century, tutoring students in histology.
Black history at the University also includes more recognizable names. As early as 1910, W.E.B. DuBois campaigned for Princeton to admit black students, and Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X spoke on campus in the 1960s. As Washington notes, Princeton lagged behind its Ivy peers in admitting black undergraduates. But he said the University eventually took a leadership role on matters of race, reflecting the values of its hometown. Princeton is better off for having the University in Princeton, said Washington, and I think the University is a better place because of the diversity of the community. "</p>
<p>
[quote]
Princeton kids are attraced to the bicker systems of the selective eating clubs, not the SIGN-IN ONES. Bicker clubs, generally, are better quality then non-selective clubs. Hence, this whole eating club scene fosters a sense of elitism and division among students. If you guys think im a fool, then read the several DailyPrincetonian articles on this issue.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Better quality in what sense? If you're looking for it, you'll find a handful of people who joined their bicker club solely because of the prestige, and their desire to flaunt it. But seriously, those kind of people are their own special brand of crazy. If that's what you mean by "better," you're just as crazy. :-P Each of the clubs has a personality, and one of them will fit you if you'll give it the chance. It's not a question of "better."</p>
<p>If I could reiterate one piece of advice to CC as a whole, it would be do things that make you happy, not <em>just</em> things that impress other people. Or at least know who you're impressing, if you're going to go to the trouble... This goes for eating clubs as much as it goes for colleges (an idea I've heard expressed here before).</p>
<p>One major reason prospectives flock to the CC board is to get to know the culture of colleges before they apply. But seriously, there's only so much you can learn from a campus visit and an internet message board -- especially about the eating clubs. Eating clubs are one of the most difficult issues because the entire concept of a social organization elicits strong feelings. However, how many of you prospectives have actually set foot inside an eating club before deciding to attend? Like, <em>really</em> set foot, not just during Admit Weekend? Actually talked to members? It always mystifies me the strong feelings that people can find for systems that they don't really know firsthand. I know a couple people who've joined clubs as seniors because by sophomore year they'd been semi-brainwashed into thinking the clubs weren't for them... and ended up among the clubs' most enthusiastic members.</p>
<p>
[quote]
After two hours of discussing colleges, I realized that this was the group of kids from the Bay Area who were accepted into Princeton but ultimately turned down Princeton. Princeton hired this research group to find why we turned them down. Guess what the #1 reason was? Social Heirarchy
(quite a bit of talk about eating clubs. no one there liked it and all thought that it was high-school like.. Princeton gives this elitist attitude that is only worsened by the eating clubs)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you ask a group of people who didn't choose Princeton why they didn't choose Princeton, and they had any insecurities at all about the eating clubs, it'll come out in the interview -- especially if that's a response the interviewer is looking for. What I don't understand is why Princeton has to garner so much uninformed criticism about the eating clubs... especially when the Greek systems at certain other universities are so much worse yet go without notice. Do people <em>really</em> think there will be no "social hierarchy" whatsoever at any other school they choose?</p>
<p>However, if you ask a group of people who chose Princeton why they did, a number will include the eating clubs as a reason. It works both ways. If you ask graduating seniors what they'll miss the most about Princeton, their club is likely to be prominent on that list. If I were looking for an authority on eating clubs, I think it makes the most sense to go with those who are the <em>most informed</em> on the issue -- people who have actually experienced them.</p>
<p>No offense intended to all you prospectives and your incredible collective knowledge base (you are all fifteen hundred times more informed about Princeton life than I was when I applied). But being at Princeton is different from reading about Princeton. I mean... one should hope... :-)</p>
<p>I just read through the "What are eating clubs?" thread. Wow, eating clubs sound <em>so</em> much fun. Like a guaranteed social system.</p>
<p>I don't care if I live 30 seconds away right now - Pton is my new favorite school :P.</p>
<p>And I REALLY don't see much of a difference between eating clubs and Greek life. Similar concepts, both usually dominate the social scene, both can be either selective or not... Anyone?</p>
<p>litho - truthfully, i am not too sure why Princeton gives off the preppy, conservative, nose-in-air aura. It was my top choice until I started to rethink where I wanted to be for the next 4 years. But i think Princeton is trying to change its student body enough so that later on in the future, it can compete with Harvard and Yale for cross-admits. Right now, most HYP crossadmits still feel like Princeton has that snobby attitude.</p>