Can a student compete on team as a graduate student?

Athletic Recruits
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<p>So I am a parent who's not well versed in NCAA rules. Can a student compete as a graduate student?</p>

<p>My D wants to compete for 4 years on a track team in college....at this point in her life this is very important to her. At most colleges her AP scores will allow her to finish up a semester or two early, we have been assuming that she will have a lighter course load along the way rather than miss a season of winter and spring track in her final year (or she could double major, etc..). </p>

<p>Today I learned that she could skip the 1st year (applying AP credits) and do a 3-year BS + 1 year accelerated MS at one of her top choices (a DII school). Could she complete that 4th year as a masters-level student? </p>

<p>BTW: What do other athletes do with their AP credits?</p>

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<p>Yep, a girl on D’s track team had an injury redshirt season during undergrad and is using her least year of eligibility as a grad student at another school</p>

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<p>There are very specific rules about this. You need to meet certain academic criteria to do it, in addition to having a year of eligibility remaining. I suggest calling the NCAA for details. I know someone who just went through it, and it is not a simple task. </p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

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<p>I think that once you are an NCAA registered athlete, you are allowed to play 4 seasons during 5 years of eligibility. So if you start playing freshman year and you skip one season, you could technically play on the varsity squad in the 5th year, assuming you are still enrolled at that school. I don’t know for sure if that means graduate students are allowed to play though, it may only be allowed for undergraduate students.</p>

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<p>We looked into this. My D could have redshirted (retroactively) after her missed season (injury) and played her fourth season as a grad student. It was worthwhile to consider.</p>

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<p>We’ve also known athletes who have done this successfully, while staying at the same university where they did their undergrad. Although it’s also possible to use a year of continued eligibility at a different university, it is often harder since the coach of that university may not want to take on an athlete for only a year.</p>

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<p>D’s former teammate was welcomed with open arms as a grad student on her new team. The fact that she was one of the fastest runners on the team and helped bring home the NCAA XC championship helped. :-)</p>

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<p>just piling on … yes it can be done … but it depends on the sport, the reason for needing the extra year, the division, etc so as others mentioned this needs to be investigated … and since it sounds like there is one particular school under consideration I’d suggest contacting that coach.</p>

<p>(PS - in some situations the grad participation can even be at a different school)</p>

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<p>Thank you for quick responses! I will suggest that D talk to the coach about this new intriguing idea (accelerated BS/MS program and staying on the team). Part of her hesitation about the DII university is that it is not as academically challenging as her D1 & DIII options (but the most affordable by far).</p>

<p>Adding athletics to the equation makes the whole college selection process more complicated.</p>

<p>Any stories about how your children used their AP (or dual enrollment & IB credits)?</p>

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<p>I will take up your offer on the use of APs.</p>

<p>There is no right answer – whether to cash them in for credit or even whether use the AP as a springboard to skip the intro class.</p>

<p>IMO, AP’s have been sold to us as a substitute for a college class; in reality, the whole purpose of APs is to keep up with like-minded students vying for a spot at the top colleges. In short, the APs (and IBs) are essentially a scam; but since there is no alternative, we all had to participate in the AP race (how many did Johnny take, what percentage of the offerings did he take, did Sally “pass” well so did Johnny, and why don’t colleges who forced Johnny into the scam even look at the AP test results, and why do colleges who forced Johnny into taking AP Chem force Johnny to take the SAT II in Chem). But, I am merely howling at the moon on this (S took 9, D [a non athlete] is taking 13).</p>

<p>Anyone who thinks that an AP class is really and truly a substitute for a college class (in let’s say chemistry) has bought into a fanciful story line. Even assuming that the high school teacher is qualified as a college instructor, AP classes teach to the test (otherwise why sell the product), AP classes do not teach the material in a way that a college instructor expects the kids to learn. </p>

<p>What does that mean? Well, it means there are huge gaping holes in knowledge (again let’s say chemistry) and a college instructor will not slow down the class (of sophomores) to teach (e.g., the physics part of chem that the AP teacher skipped over). So, your newly minted freshman (learning the ropes of a new social life, new academics, etc., etc) is competing with the tribal elders of the college (sophomores). These wizened students have learned the difference between a high school test (regurgitate) and a college test (analyze); your poor freshman is about to learn the differnce - the hard way (against the tribal elders).</p>

<p>My Son calls it “the doctrine of presumed knowledge.” Under this theory, the college instructor assumes that a student taking a class above the intro class has learned all the subject matter taught in the intro class. Nothing can be further from the truth when it comes to an AP class. IMO, a “5” in the AP test represents a “C” grade in the college intro class. I would not want to go into a higher level math/science class with a C grade as a foundation. </p>

<p>My son used some of his science/econ APs to skip the intro classes (classes of 300 kids) and move into the next level (classes of only 150 kids). While he made great grades in those next level classes, he thought it was a mistake to cash in the credits (I was in favor of cashing in the credits on the theory “why repeat what you already had.” I was so wrong!) </p>

<p>I will let my D do whatever she thinks is right (again there is no blanket correct answer – it really depends on the student).</p>

<p>The preceding rant was mainly about science, math and econ APs. I think there are some AP’s where the college courses do not build on the AP course; English and history come to mind. Here, perhaps a student who did well does not need to take the general intro course and can move right into a more in-depth area of study.</p>

<p>All this having been said, I also realize that cashing in the AP credits can actually make school into a three year event and save a ton of money. My S asked me why in the world someone would want to leave college early? I had no answer other than the money it saved.</p>

<p>My Son had 8 credits he could have cashed in; he can still cash in 6. He may use a few to lighten his course load during his semester of competition – it’s up to him.</p>

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<p>I like taking the IB… some of the things I learn are interesting… For me, and many people in my school, taking the IB Diploma has nothing to do with “cashing in” or getting out of classes later on, but trying to find enjoyment in the courses you’ve chosen.</p>

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<p>Moon – good teachers make a subject interesting (or the opposite). (And, for many of the brightest, they must be challenged in HS or they get bored.) </p>

<p>But no matter how good a teacher is, the IB and AP classes are not the equal to the same course in college – except to the very very few who are at the tail end of the bell curve. For the rest of the mere mortals, participation in the IB/AP program is something you must do to get into the top schools.</p>

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<p>Stemit, I agree there’s an AP arms race…and most top schools limit how many credits can be applied (usually one semester, and often not to satisfy major requirements). Thus a student who takes 12 AP classes is only “cashing in” a few… which makes study abroad, double majors, a senior thesis, or taking grad-level classes possible. At publics, it might translate into sophomore standing…which raises lots of questions about the quality of the bachelors degree.</p>

<p>What about your student athletes specifically (particulary those at top 20 schools)? Did they need to take a reduced load of courses while playing to manage everything well? Is that the best use of AP credit?</p>

<p>Driven kids in HS take a full AP courseload, particpate in 2 or three seasons of a sport, and sometimes other things too…is it possible to keep up this level of performance at the college-level, realistically?</p>

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<p>I am stumbling into this conversation late and am so glad I did. Parent of 13 (junior) who will be playing college athletics and pursuing an engineering degree. We too were sold on AP being a way to “cash in” but are now learning that (specifically in the math/science courses, as Stemit says) this is not a good idea. Her future college advised that unless AP Chem was an extremely easy 100 (ummm, no) there is NO WAY she can start with Chemistry 2 for Engineering. She will have 4 completed by the end of this year and was planning to take 4 more next year but will now do Dual credit english instead, based on the advice we’re being given. All that said, I am glad we did AP because I think it is really preparing her for the academically demanding school she will be attending, but I’m glad we weren’t only doing it for the “cash in” value. We are in a unique situation because due to the academic diversity at our school, the “on level” course are just not an option. At all. So once you get past Pre-AP, the only options are dual credit and AP. She may use her AP credits to get out of some electives later and perhaps only have 12 credits vs 15 during “season”. If that works, great.</p>

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<p>Here’s the other thing I just heard this week - a friend was on a college visit with her junior daughter who plans to go on to Vet school after undergrad. The school they were visiting is one of the top vet schools in the country. She too will have a load of AP credits when she graduates. The adviser she met with cautioned her against using these to skip her Freshman requirements because, when it comes time to apply to Vet school, it is all about your college GPA. Classes skipped through AP credit don’t get a letter grade, just a “pass”, so now your college GPA is made up entirely of your sophomore level and above classes, which tend to be harder, so you miss some of those potential “easy A’s” from Freshman year. Dual credit classes, conversely, when accepted, transfer with the grade earned. I had never heard this before and found it pretty enlightening…</p>

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<p>Hi Squidge, choosing between AP and dual enrollment is tricky. </p>

<p>Pros of APs:
APs boost rank at some high schools (if GPA is weighted)
GC may require slate of APs the for “most rigorous” check mark
Too many dual enrollment courses could result in a student becoming a transfer student (happens to homeschoolers where I teach) rather than freshmen applicant status (and transfer merit scholarships are not as generous).</p>

<p>Seems to me that most colleges will only “count” APs, if the scores are officially sent to them… so the choice is the student’s. I don;t think you can hold back college transcripts where classes have been taken in HS (and/or they are part of the HS transcript).</p>

<p>The college GPA is an interesting issue… I suspect a student would earn a better grade in Psychology 101 if they had taken AP psych in HS. But would are driven kids want to do this? I suspect they would rather skip to higher level offerings.</p>

<p>Food for thought…</p>

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<p>The weighting issue is a tricky one and many “top” high schools are moving away from it and every college admissions counselor told us the first thing they do is strip the weighting off your GPA anyway. Not to say they don’t want to see the rigor, but they’re looking at the “real” grade, so loading up on all APs is not the right path for all students.</p>

<p>Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating jumping ship on AP for sure for kids who can handle the work and want the challenge. And as I said, no doubt her AP work is preparing her for the rigorous curriculum she will face starting day 1 at her college. But that sales job the schools give you that you will never be accepted without ALL AP or that you are saving yourself so much money by skipping your freshman year is a little misguided. Next year she will have AP PreCal B/C, AP Physics, and AP Gov/Econ. She’ll already have AP Eng 3, AP World, AP US and AP Chem completed. She just wanted to opt for Dual credit English rather than taking on a 4th AP next year and upon talking to her future college, it’s a great option. The school acted like she was throwing her future away :wink: And while I am definitely glad she took the most challenging classes, it has been recommended that she NOT use any of the science classes to skip ahead - as for math, the suggestion was that if she can get a 5 on b/c she can skip the first semester of the first year of Calc for Engineers. So if we were counting on her skipping way ahead, we would be disappointed.</p>

<p>Very interesting info on the Dual credit making you a transfer - how many does that take…? My challenge is coming next year when my son starts high school. Where my D is ridiculously self-driven, he’s bright but oh so lazy :slight_smile: And he HATES to read… I think he will be fine in Math, and we are going to make him do AP Eng 3 because we were so impressed with the teacher and curriculum. But I can’t imagine him plowing through the reading required for AP History classes and I’m just not sure what to do as an alternative… On-level classes at our school are just not a good environment at all and I was liking the idea of doing some dual credits with him. Hmmmmm…</p>

<p>Thanks for the info!</p>

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<p>Not to worry, it’s a lot…25+ college course credits trigger transfer status at our university. If a student in this situation wants to be considered as a freshmen applicant they need to request that the dual enrollment courses not be fully be applied to the college transcript (thus some might be repeated in college). </p>

<p>And courses taken after HS graduation are counted in every case, say in the summer…so kids taking a semester or year gap before applying as freshmen need to be sure not to enroll in too many classes.</p>