Can Andover be truly need-blind in admission even if it wanted to be?

Prep School Admissions
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<p>Being need blind in admissions but not meeting full need is not a big deal. You get accepted without regard to need. Then at some schools you go on a fin aid waiting list and are told up front so you have a chance to come up with the money someone (my friend did this) and then go right onto the accept, or you stay on that list and will only get a place if money shows up or you come up with the money somehow Other schools, you get accepted without regard to need, but you are simply gapped, and it’s pretty much take or leave it with your aid package if you get one Both of those methods of handling gaps between need and fin aid happen at schools that are need blind in their admissions policies.</p>

<p>Schools that are need aware, will simply reject those student for whom they cannot meet the need, and often they won’t tell you the reason for your rejection. Could be need, could be other factors. They will accept some kids with need, the ones they most want up to what they can cover with their fin aid budget. So it’s possible to get accepted AND get what you need from these schools. </p>

<p>I know someone who was waitlisted with pretty big need from one of these schools, I figured the chances were pretty small that she’d clear the waitlist because in order for her to go to the school, she’d also need the fin aid, so not only would a spot have to open up, some money would too. Wouldn’t have bet a dime she’d be going there, but she did. Someone declined a spot, with money offers so she was offered a seat with the aid she needed. So these things really do happen sometimes Parents were told she was NOT waitlisted purely due to need, however, but that she would only be offered admissions when both an opening AND money were available AND if she was the next pick from the WL. So she had a triple whammy there but still got in.</p>

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<p>I stumbled upon the article in the Phillipian about the three Andover students who were from lower SEC and had a hard transition. I have to say I was impressed with the level of FA that Andover provides. It was not they just cover the cost of attendance but they also covered other expenses such as clothing. Despite all of this, the kids still felt like their lower SEC set them apart. I would commend Andover for trying to cover so many expenses like travel etc. If they want to call themselves need blind I would say go ahead. From the article, Andover works hard to provide for the needs of its FA students. This is a big step forward from my college days when FA was mainly loans. The fact that they have such a huge endowment allows them to do more. I hope they continue to remain committed to providing FA. Maybe holding on to the “need blind” mantel makes them more committed to complete FA. Here is the article <a href=“http://www.phillipian.net/articles/2014/01/30/price-andover-education-three-students-difficult-transitions-andover”>http://www.phillipian.net/articles/2014/01/30/price-andover-education-three-students-difficult-transitions-andover&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Both Exeter and Andover (and SPS, Groton, SAS
) meet full need with grants. Obviously need blind/meets full need is great; it’s also incredibly rare, both on the high school and the college level. </p>

<p>I far prefer schools that are not need blind but meet full need (with grants or capped loans) to need blind schools that don’t meet full need. The second situation leads to (a) heartbreak or (b) too much debt. Better to move on and find a better fit in my view. </p>

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<p>Classicalmama, some prefer what you do, some do prefer to be given the option to cough up the money, as my one friend did. It allowed her to see what the schools would give and then when her DD was accepted but not with the money, she contacted family members and looked at some options for her to go there. There are folks that do have those options. Otherwise, they’d be flat out rejected or waitlisted without that chance to scrape up
the money. The same with colleges. If you are out right rejected, you have no alternatives to consider and no idea whether you are rejected due to the need or for other reasons. </p>

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<p>@classicalmama I was just impressed that Andover covers clothing and travel for the parents. I have not applied for FA at BS and I have no inside knowledge. I would think that many schools cover the cost of tuition and let the student come up with the rest. I am impressed that so many of other schools do look at all the costs of attending BS.</p>

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<p>Many of these schools, not only cover the tution, room board, supplies and books, but all sorts of fees that come up. At my kids’ school, we did not charge scholarship families for a lot of things that had fees. Also each full scholarship kid got an allowance that could be used for things like special trips, or other extras, as set amount. I ran a lot of event and when I sent out letters with cost, I had lists with those students’ families who were not given any fee requests or charges. That’s how I could tell who was on full scholarship. That was not the case for partial scholarship recipients, however.</p>

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<p>@cptofthehouse Thanks for the information. I am glad that FA has progressed so much even at the BS level.</p>

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<p>Again, I dont have any personal interest or history with Andover either.</p>

<p>But I am just surprised that CC Members are so willing to give Andover a pass on this. I have seen members pile on other posters for just a difference of opinion or philosophy. The issue here to me is ethics. It much more important to voice opinions here rather than in a fruitless discussion trying to convince someone they should align their views with yours.</p>

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<p>Here are new sets of numbers:</p>

<p>Andover
Year | Applications | Admits | Admit Rate | Increase in Applications
2008-09 | 2,386 | 457 | 19% | **
2014-15 | 3,049 | 427 | 14% | **663 (28%) **</p>

<p>Exeter
Year | Applications | Admits | Admit Rate | Increase in Applications
2008-09 | 2,678 | 482 | 18% | **
2014-15 | 2,325 | 435 | 19% | -353 (-13%)</p>

<p>Admission stats for Andover and Exeter were essentially the same in 2008, when Andover went to “need blind.” Since then, Andover’s admission rate has fallen to 14%, largely driven by the increase in the number of applications (by 663 or 28%). It’s clear to me that Andover has benefited from its “need blind” policy.</p>

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<p>@Jersey386 I do not think I was giving them a pass. I think it is a matter of semantics and to what level of purity you want to hold them. I am impressed with the generosity of many of these BS. I agree that calling themselves “need blind” benefits them with increased applications from lower SEC students. You might even say that this gives many of these kids an idea that they have a chance that does not exist. You could call them purveyors of false hope. The fact is that they work hard to provide funding for those they do admit. This in itself is laudable.</p>

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<p>^^ Dont disagree on the generosity.</p>

<p>But they are clearly trying to distinguish themselves from other generous institutions. And as SharingGift points out this messaging is WILDLY successful
 at the expense of tender young egos.</p>

<p>They are very clearly not adhering to the spirit of need blind. I dont see anyone here disagreeing with that here. All the comments rising to the defense of A’s misleading marketing campaign is justifying why it is okay or explaining how they manage to get away with it.</p>

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<p>If I understand your argument Jersey, you think they are not really need blind because their FA budget is the same as Exeter’s. I’m getting a little frustrated here because I can’t see that you’re responding to my answer to that conundrum One more round:</p>

<p>E and A have similar financial aid budgets, true. However, they have very different admissions procedures. For example, Andover uses the common app. and Exeter does not–certainly one significant reason for the recent increases and decreases in applications beyond need blind statements. Exeter accepts more students than Andover (even this year when Exeter accepted fewer than usual)–because Exeter accepts more FULL PAY students. Because Exeter is just as need blind as Andover–to a certain point, after which it accepts more full pay students who would not be accepted if they needed FA. This difference correlates with their higher admit rates/numbers. This is how their FA budgets can be the same while their admission policies are not. </p>

<p>SharingGift: do you really think that a student would be more likely to apply to Andover than Exeter because of the words need blind? What drew my attention were the schools that offered free rides to families under a certain income; the percentage of students on FA; and the assurance that aid was grant based. </p>

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<p>@classicalmama In response to your second question, I think that it is likely that a family with a very low income would be more drawn to the school that offers “need-blind” admission. </p>

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<p>@classicalmama‌ - My issue has nothing to do with size of A’s budget vs. E’s. It is that the amount of FA doesn’t change from year to year. Clearly they are very carefully working on a strict FA budget. That is not need blind.</p>

<p>Need blind implies that Admissions sends a pile of admits to the FA Office and instructs then to buy this class no matter what the cost.</p>

<p>If A was indeed need-blind the amout of FA would fluctuate, and could even go down some years.</p>

<p>ChoatieMom’s April 29 comments describe why I take such issue with A’s need-blind message.</p>

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<p>^^ I also noticed that in your immediate response to ChoatieMom’s April 29 post you say,</p>

<p>“Does that mean that Andover isn’t really need blind? Sort of.”</p>

<p>So you ARE giving them a pass on their mis-representation. My question is WHY?</p>

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<p>I thought I had a better chance at Andover because it’s need-blind. In retrospect, it might’ve hurt my chances because there’s no way for them to know how little I have unless they look at the financial aid application. </p>

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<p>I think that families with very low income are drawn to schools that promise that all of their costs will be paid once they are admitted. </p>

<p>Agreed, Jersey, I was making a concession to your argument–but it’s a concession that I think would apply to all need blind schools–Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, for example. </p>

<p>At some point you have to distinguish between schools that do one thing and schools that do another. Andover, is–as far as we know–treating FA/FP applications differently than Exeter does. Does it make a difference to FA students? Not really. But it doesn’t mean they are not–by the standards of academia–need blind. It’s a word with a particular definition–maybe not the definition we’d come up with the first time we heard it, but with a little education, I think most of us get it. That’s why, for my family at least, the language “meets full need” carries far more weight than “need blind”–because of the problem of gapping describe in an earlier post, which seems to me to be a much sneakier way to be need blind–but not really. </p>

<p>I hear your point about FA being the same every year, and how that doesn’t seem possible–but these schools have been at his for a long time, and I suspect that they’ve worked out admissions criteria that makes that possible. Let’s keep in mind too that without those full pay parents making incredibly generous contributions to the school fund, the scholarship fund would be way more limited. That’s part of the puzzle too. If these were public institutions, I’d hold them to a different standard. They’re not. I’m focused on the fact that schools like Andover, Exeter, SAS, Mercersburg have an extraordinary commitment to providing grant-based FA. That’s what matters to middle class schmoes like me.</p>

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<p>". I am glad that FA has progressed so much even at the BS level."</p>

<p>This has been the case at certain schools for a very long time regarding scholarship students. How widespread, I don’t know.</p>

<p>“So you ARE giving them a pass on their mis-representation. My question is WHY?”</p>

<p>If you deal with academia, colleges, schools, you understand what words mean. “Need blind” has a certain definition used by many schools, and I’ve yet to see it every mean it to the nth degree. So it is with almost every definition, every statement made. You can argue the semantics and special definitions all you want and become a crusader to change the way an entire field is misusing a word, phrase. We all give society as a whole and all the people, institutions and programs a pass when it comes to certain catch words.</p>

<p>All “need blind” means is that when the Admissions office goes through the applications for the best candidates, that they do not consider the fact that the student is APPLYING for financial aid in their evaluative process. Oh, yes, the socio economic status is very much taken into account in that someone in severely adverse situations who have still managed to academically excel are given such recognition. Absolutely, a kid growing up in one homeless shelter to another going from one lousy school to another is going to be given some pluses for that part of his application. And who is to argue with that? </p>

<p>Also, every school has the development pool which is made up of kids whose parents have donated huge amounts, not a thousand here or there , though it can vary from school to school, where advantage is given. Usually there is legacy attached, but not always. You had better believe if Big Bucks Donor who has given millions over the last several years in any kind of giving campaign comes up with a kid applying to go to a school that is going to be taken into consideration. </p>

<p>You might as well start getting used to this now as it this continues through out life. If you think for one instant that a Rockefeller or Trump scion looking for a job or applying to a college, especially institutions/companies/causes that have benefited from largesse from the families involved have the same chance as any other given applicant, you are out of your mind. Harvard,Princeton, any of the schools do have that development pool. </p>

<p>So there are need aware categories within an “need blind” situation. </p>

<p>Also, who knows what the personal biases are of the actual Admission Directors? Some of them make very little money in those jobs, especially the employees under the AD, him/herself. You don’t have to even know who is applying for fin aid to get a pretty good idea who is flush and who isn’t. Coming from PREP for PREP or ABC? Good chance that student will need money. If the letters of reference, essays, or even the current school can give you hints of that as well as the home address. Also parent’s bio summary is often asked in the app, so a pretty good idea can be gotten even without knowing whether the family is asking for fin aid. But the biases can go either way. That someone making about $30K a year is looking at kids whose parents are willing and able to pay more than that person’s whole year’s pay for the kid to go to a private boarding school can make for some dislike of the “silver spoon” candidates. These are human beings with their own biases, prejudices inherent that they are supposed to be putting aside, but you know good help is always hard to find, so
</p>

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<p>@Jersey386,

</p>

<p>Not likely. As tuition tends to rise each year, you’d have to back out each year’s tuition increase. Perhaps some of the Andover parents could report whether tuition has increased each year over the last decade.</p>

<p>As it is, I have the impression Andover’s, Exeter’s, and Roxbury Latin’s tuitions are lower than other schools’. Forgive my being too lazy to try to track down prior years’ tuition rates and FA load. In my younger years I would have. At any rate, significantly lower tuition makes a school more attractive than its peers to full pay families, and to families who only qualify for a small amount of aid. </p>

<p>I think you need to think more about what holistic admission means for a school. It is not that the school ranks candidates on the basis of test scores from 1 to 2000, and takes the top 400. (That is what the whole “best of the best” mantra would lead you to believe.) It is much more that the school has needs which it needs to fill from the pool of applicants. Thus, a smart child from a middle class family might not be as desireable to these schools as her family thinks she should be. Developed athletic talent in particular counts for much more than most people realize. </p>

<p>If you have trouble with Andover’s need blind policy, you’re going to love holistic admissions and merit aid on the college level. (sarcasm!) Search for “holistic” on this site for more information.</p>

<p>If you look at Harvard’s financial aid policy, it is amazingly generous. However, do notice the distribution of family incomes reported on Harvard’s fact sheet: <a href=“https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/fact-sheet[/url]”>https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/fact-sheet&lt;/a&gt;. Yes, I believe Harvard is need blind. That doesn’t mean the majority of students receiving financial aid would pass for even the US middle class. Looking at the bar graph of “Harvard Scholarship Recipients’ Income Levels,” most of the scholarship recipients’ families make more than the US average family income of $50,000.</p>

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<p>As I’ve explained before, the reason that the %s remain rather constant for aid recipients, is because the schools do give a boost to certain low income special applicants that would not make the cut without soci-econ factors taken into account, THey can adjust that boost to stay within budget. A lot of top colleges do the same.</p>