Can you get into med school from a community college?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
21

<p>I'm not nearly as doom and gloom as BDM when it comes to Community Colleges. Biggest thing is that you have a legitimate reason as to WHY you attended one. One of my very good friends is a second year med student at the school in our home state. He went to his local CC because they gave him a track scholarship to attend there for two years, which he was then able to parlay into a partial scholarship at the Division 1 level two years later. Certainly he had a reason for attending a CC which most admissions officers would be understanding of. </p>

<p>Now if you're going to a CC simply because coursework is likely to be easier (and we've had some posters on this board who are doing just that and were very vocal about their reasoning), then, going to a CC is a liability. </p>

<p>I tend to think that going to a CC could be, in the right setting, an asset. If you're the person who coming out of HS who wasn't sure what they wanted to do, wasn't sure college was right for you, and then had a calling towards medicine (with competitive stats - 3.7 GPA and 30+ MCAT), then I imagine you could write a powerful personal statement and likely be at little disadvantage. Will you get into Harvard or WUSTL? Probably not, even with the requisite scores, but I also doubt that you'd be the type of person who would be looking to get into those schools anyway...</p>

22

<p>"The upshot is that the transfers get to take all of the relatively easily graded upper division courses without having to have survived the excruciating weeders."</p>

<p>Not necessarily, most premeds realize that med-schools have expressed a desire for pre-reqs taken at the university. So many pre-meds don't take them until after they transfer. You are assuming that transfers are science majors. While most are, there are exceptions. Why would a history major be obligated to take BCPM at the JC? </p>

<p>"There are certain programs at certain schools that I can think of, that shall remain unnamed, whose upper divison coursework is arguably easier in terms of grading (or, at least, are of comparable difficulty) as the community colleges."</p>

<p>The problem with this reasoning is that most premeds then to be overachievers. So they will most likely end up transferring to a top public(notorious for harsh grading). For example, in a California JC, almost everyone with an 3.7+ will get accepted(unless they don't apply) by Berkeley. And if they get in, they will most likely go, as Cal wins the cross admit battle for transfers in California. But, more importantly, Cal's upper division courses tend to be more difficult then the lower division courses at the JC. Now this doesn't apply only to Cal, but all top tier schools in general.</p>

23

<p>
[quote]
Not necessarily, most premeds realize that med-schools have expressed a desire for pre-reqs taken at the university. So many pre-meds don't take them until after they transfer. You are assuming that transfers are science majors. While most are, there are exceptions. Why would a history major be obligated to take BCPM at the JC?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I make no assumptions about anything. That's why I used the phrase "certain programs". Not ALL programs. Certain programs do indeed allow you to skip over harsh weeders at a JC. That's simply unfair. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The problem with this reasoning is that most premeds then to be overachievers. So they will most likely end up transferring to a top public(notorious for harsh grading). For example, in a California JC, almost everyone with an 3.7+ will get accepted(unless they don't apply) by Berkeley. And if they get in, they will most likely go, as Cal wins the cross admit battle for transfers in California. But, more importantly, Cal's upper division courses tend to be more difficult then the lower division courses at the JC. Now this doesn't apply only to Cal, but all top tier schools in general.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, I completely disagree. In fact, it's funny that you brought up the example of Cal because Cal is exactly who I was thinking about. Some of Cal's upper division courses are NOT that difficult in terms of grading. Granted, they are difficult in terms of material covered, but that's not what we are talking about here. Med school adcoms aren't going to see how difficult the material was. All they are going to see is your GRADE. </p>

<p>And the fact is, it is Berkeley's lower division courses that tend to be harshly graded. The upper division, not so much. That's why many Berkeley students, as well as I believe the Fiske Guide, report that grading actually gets easier as you move up. The problem is then surviving until you get the upper division. But CC transfers don't have to worry about that because they didn't have to complete the lower division at Berkeley.</p>

24

<p>"Not ALL programs. Certain programs do indeed allow you to skip over harsh weeders at a JC. That's simply unfair."</p>

<p>Unfair?, look at it this way, if there is indeed a stigma(maybe in industry, I don't know) associated with the JC, the extra gpa boost gained by not taking the harsh weeders at the JC would even the playing field. </p>

<p>Plus, I would like to point out, the JC does have weeders(not as harsh as Mit or Cal). Example, I took a physics course for engineers at the JC that failed up to 70% of its students. Maybe 5% would get A's. Now you can make the argument that the students are horrible. But I did know someone that got a 5(highest AP test score) and an A in AP physicsC(engineering physics) and got a B in the JC class. Keep in mind that this counts as a retake since he covered the same material in HS.</p>

<p>"Again, I completely disagree. In fact, it's funny that you brought up the example of Cal because Cal is exactly who I was thinking about. Some of Cal's upper division courses are NOT that difficult in terms of grading. Granted, they are difficult in terms of material covered, but that's not what we are talking about here. Med school adcoms aren't going to see how difficult the material was. All they are going to see is your GRADE.</p>

<p>And the fact is, it is Berkeley's lower division courses that tend to be harshly graded. The upper division, not so much. That's why many Berkeley students, as well as I believe the Fiske Guide, report that grading actually gets easier as you move up. The problem is then surviving until you get the upper division. But CC transfers don't have to worry about that because they didn't have to complete the lower division at Berkeley."</p>

<p>It doesn't matter that Berkeley's upper division courses are easier relative to Berkeley's lower division courses. All that matters is that Berkeley's upper division courses are more difficult than the JC's lower division courses. Because most pre-meds(at the JC) are great students, they will transfer to schools like Cal. Ergo, the majority of them will suffer a downward trend. Which was the point I was trying to make all along. Its not the JC that prevents acceptances per se. Its the post-transfer effect. </p>

<p>So, I would argue, that for pre-meds, the transfer student is worse off. Not the other way around. As you mentioned yourself,a student at Berkeley will receive lower grades at first but then it gets better as they progress throughout their under graduate career. Med schools do consider upward trends. A luxury that the JC transfer will most likely not receive.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]
Unfair?, look at it this way, if there is indeed a stigma(maybe in industry, I don't know) associated with the JC, the extra gpa boost gained by not taking the harsh weeders at the JC would even the playing field.</p>

<p>Plus, I would like to point out, the JC does have weeders(not as harsh as Mit or Cal).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Right there, you just proved my point. The JC weeders are not as harsh as the Cal weeders. Yet the JC transfers get to skip over those Cal weeders. How exactly is that fair? The Cal students have to survive those harsh Cal weeders. So why shouldn't those transfer students also have to survive them? </p>

<p>
[quote]
It doesn't matter that Berkeley's upper division courses are easier relative to Berkeley's lower division courses. All that matters is that Berkeley's upper division courses are more difficult than the JC's lower division courses.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And that right there is our point of contention. I am frankly not sure that all of Berkeley's upper division courses are actually harder than lower division JC courses. Some of them are, but some of them are not. And that's the point. </p>

<p>Again, note, when I say harder, I am not talking about the inherent difficulty of the material. I am specifically talking about the difficulty of the grading. And the fact of the matter is that there are some Cal upper division courses, which shall remain unnamed, in which it is almost impossible to get a bad grade. </p>

<p>To give you one example, I know a guy who took an upper division humanities course that shall remain unnamed. Most of the grading was based on one final paper that was due on the final Friday of the class. The paper was supposed to be based on books that were being read throughout the course. He never went to class. He didn't read a single book for that class until Sunday. No, not the Sunday before the Friday the final paper was due. Rather, the Sunday AFTER that paper was ALREADY DUE. Basically, the guy hadn't lifted a finger for that class during the entire semester. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, he was able to read 2 of the books and dash off a paper by that Tuesday. His final grade in that course? An A-. That was actually the worst grade in that class because he was the worst student. But even being the worst student was still good enough to earn him an A-. He says that every time he thinks about that class, he just has to laugh. He laughs at how little effort he put into that class and how he had no idea what was going on, and yet got a very good grade anyway. </p>

<p>And that's the crux of the problem right there. It is not always true that all Berkeley upper division courses are graded harder than JC courses. Some are graded easier. Hence, for those students who take such courses, any upward trend in GPA is actually fictitious.</p>

<p>But med schools won't know that. All they will see is that you have an upward trade in your GPA and they won't care why. They won't care that you, either by planning or by sheer luck, happened to take those particular Berkeley upper division courses that hand out easy grades. All they will see is that you somehow have an upward grade trend, and they will reward you accordingly. They shouldn't reward you. But they will.</p>

26

<p>Really?, I didn't know that Cal had classes as childish as the ones in high school. </p>

<p>But then again it doesn't matter, the mass majority of pre-med transfers will have the bulk of their course load in the hard sciences. Which will probably be graded harder than lower div JC courses. And to add fuel to fire, the courses will be conceptually more difficult. So most transfers will experience a downward trend despite skipping the harsh weeders. </p>

<p>Sure some may intentionally become humanities majors just to get that easy 4.0. But these are special cases and it doesn't warrant much attention. What matters is what happens to the majority, not the outlying data points.</p>

27

<p>"The Cal students have to survive those harsh Cal weeders. So why shouldn't those transfer students also have to survive them?"</p>

<p>Hey, what about all the Cal students that APed out of them? I'm sure that in all fairness, they should be forced to take the weeders. Yet they aren't. So why should the transfer students?</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
Really?, I didn't know that Cal had classes as childish as the ones in high school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, to reiterate, it's the grading I'm talking about, not the curriculum.</p>

<p>Not to put too much of a stylistic point on this, but how exactly do you think all the Cal football players are able to maintain academic eligibility? Let's face it. The football team is not exactly comprised of academic geniuses. They're not admitted because of their academic ability, and a lot of them don't care about academics (as a lot of them are trying to make it to the NFL). Yet they are apparently able to find the courses that will give them the grades necessary to keep them academically eligible to play. But naturally those courses are available to all Berkeley students, not just the players.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
But naturally those courses are available to all Berkeley students, not just the players.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They're called sociology courses...</p>

<p>As someone with a degree in sociology, I should know, and I'm allowed to make that joke.</p>

30

<p>
[quote]
But then again it doesn't matter, the mass majority of pre-med transfers will have the bulk of their course load in the hard sciences. Which will probably be graded harder than lower div JC courses. And to add fuel to fire, the courses will be conceptually more difficult. So most transfers will experience a downward trend despite skipping the harsh weeders.</p>

<p>Sure some may intentionally become humanities majors just to get that easy 4.0. But these are special cases and it doesn't warrant much attention. What matters is what happens to the majority, not the outlying data points.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But that's precisely my point. Not all JC students have to put up with harder grading classes once they transfer to Cal. Some will actually enjoy easier grading. </p>

<p>Now, are they the minority? Yeah, I agree, they probably are. But, unlike what happens in most statistical studies, these students are a self-selected minority. A cunning and savvy JC transfer who wants to maximize his chances of going to med school can deliberately seek out the easiest-graded upper division courses he can find. This is quite different in nature from true experimental studies in which populations are exogenously separated into treatment and control groups. Here, *the students themselves * have power to control which group they will be in.</p>

31

<p>
[quote]
Hey, what about all the Cal students that APed out of them? I'm sure that in all fairness, they should be forced to take the weeders. Yet they aren't. So why should the transfer students?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First off, yeah, that's a problem too and should be fixed too. </p>

<p>But so what? Just because you can't get rid of all problems doesn't mean that you shouldn't get rid of any problem. Fixing some problems is better than fixing none.</p>

<p>Secondly, this problem of which you speak is far less of an issue, at least at Berkeley. Only in rare cases do AP's actually let you skip out of true weeders. For example, one of the most notorious weeders in all of Cal is Chem3A, which is organic chemistry. I am not aware of any AP class that lets you skip OChem. Another notorious weeder is Math 54 (Linear Algebra). Again, no AP lets you skip that. </p>

<p>The only serious weeders that AP's allow you to skip are Math 1B and maybe Physics 7B (although I think they don't allow you to skip that anymore). AP's are useful for credits but they actually don't allow you to skip that many weeders.</p>

32

<p>"A cunning and savvy JC transfer who wants to maximize his chances of going to med school can deliberately seek out the easiest-graded upper division courses he can find. This is quite different in nature from true experimental studies in which populations are exogenously separated into treatment and control groups." </p>

<p>Yeah, you have a good point. I suppose that the self-selected minority becomes outliers by choice alone. And this is what makes them smart I the sense that they are following an unconventionally good strategy. But I don't think it will work as well as you make it seem to. You still have to take into account of the fact the student will still have to take science classes after he/she transfers. Even if they skip the weeders and transfer under a humanity/social science major, they still will have to take some upper division courses to prove that they can handle science. Otherwise, their chances are slim regardless of grades. A downward trend is inevitable. Sure they can take a few humanities classes to pad their gpa. But if they had a 4.0 at the JC(which is logical given the determination of premeds) and they get just one B in say upper div bio chem, well thats a downward trend.</p>

33

<p>I don't think that students skipping out of the weeders is nesscarily a bad thing. It lowers the class size(nobody wants to take a 600+ class. and every bit helps). </p>

<p>It gets the students to their appropriate level. JC classes and AP credit is all the preparation that students need to tackle the upper div courses. So why put up with the trouble with harsh graders in the first place? I mean the material is the same everywhere. The only purpose of weeders is to weed people out of programs that they can't handle. But if they can circumnavigate the system via JC or AP courses( the same courses that they wouldn't have passed had they took it at Cal) and still pass the upper div courses, then that defeats the purpose of weeders because they proved that they're "good enough".</p>

<p>And if anything, by skipping the weeders, the students are actually increasing the graduation rate, something that not only helps out the school, but the students as well.</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
You still have to take into account of the fact the student will still have to take science classes after he/she transfers. Even if they skip the weeders and transfer under a humanity/social science major, they still will have to take some upper division courses to prove that they can handle science.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I disagree. If you're not actually going to major in a science, then you don't have to take any upper division science courses at Cal. Heck, you don't have to take any science courses at Cal.</p>

<p>Consider this document written by a former premed who won a Rhodes Scholarship then went to UCSF Med School. Granted, he's talking specifically about the premed program at Stanford (where he went), but the same philosophy applies to Berkeley or anywhere else. You can take ALL of your premed science courses at an easy JC and just major in an easy humanities/soc-science when arriving at Berkeley, and in fact, a savvy and cunning premed student may want to consider doing so. It is true that getting an A in a science class at a community college is not as good as getting an A at Berkeley. But getting an A at community college is clearly better than getting a C (or worse) at Berkeley. </p>

<p>*Myth #10.
I SHOULD TAKE ALL OF MY PRE-MED
CLASSES AT STANFORD BECAUSE IT WILL
LOOK BETTER TO THE MEDICAL SCHOOLS.</p>

<p>This is not true either. Many successful
medical school applicants at the nation’s best medical
schools took many of their pre-med requirements at
community college in the summer or other local
schools. By taking some of the basics elsewhere, you
can create more academic freedom to take some of the
truly amazing courses that Stanford offers both in the
sciences and non-sciences. The introductory classes are
taught very well here, but they can also be learned
elsewhere. Many upper division classes in all
departments are taught particularly well at Stanford.
The only caveat to this is that it might look
strange if you did poorly in all of your science classes
at Stanford and then did well at an ‘easier’ school.
However, if you do fairly well at Stanford, it will not
appear strange that you took some basic coursework
elsewhere to save academic time and/or money.
Take home point: You will not be penalized
for taking some of your introductory pre-med classes
elsewhere, and this can allow you to take classes that
are taught especially well at Stanford.</p>

<p>Myth #11.</p>

<p>I AM ALWAYS BEST OFF TAKING ALL OF MY
INTRODUCTORY PRE-MED CLASSES AT
STANFORD.
False. It is true that it is more difficult to get
an A in a Stanford pre-med class than it is at most other
schools. This is easier to understand since you are
graded on a curve with some of America’s best
students. Consequently, an ‘A’ at Stanford can mean a
lot, particularly in science classes with a ‘C’ mean.
However, most of you won’t get A’s in every
class, and some of you certainly would have had higher
GPA’s elsewhere. It is also true that medical schools
know this and will take it into account.
However, this ‘forgiveness factor’ is not
infinite. Getting a 4.0 in your pre-med requirements at
a junior college will certainly make you a stronger
applicant than a 3.5 in your pre-med requirements at
Stanford. One admissions officer I spoke with
estimated the bump factor of attending a school like
Harvard or Stanford to be between 0.3 and 0.5 of a
grade point.
For some of you, an ‘A’ in high school could
be achieved through hard work and determination. This
is not necessarily true of the pre-med classes at
Stanford. Everyone is trying hard. They are all smart.
And the classes can be very difficult.
The upshot of all of this is that some of you
may be more successful applying to medical school by
taking most of your pre-med classes elsewhere. I have
known many applicants who would have been more
successful in applying to medical school if they had
pursued their academic passions at Stanford and had
taken their pre-med classes elsewhere, either in summers
or during a year off. I have also known students
at Stanford—who would have been fantastic physicians—
who quit the pre-med process in frustration
without exploring this option. If you want to be a
doctor and are struggling at Stanford, this option is
worth exploring.
I say this with some hesitancy because I know
it may cause controversy and it is difficult to know who
would be statistically better off focusing their pre-med
energies at a less competitive institution. I should also
add, however, that all such ‘core’ classes cover the
material required both for the MCAT and to be a good
doctor.
This in no way is meant to imply you made the
wrong choice by coming to Stanford if you are a premed.
Quite the contrary, Stanford may be the best
place in the country for pre-meds to attend college.
You can attain a first-rate education in any field and
simultaneously approach your pre-med curriculum with
more flexibility and more creativity than at nearly any
other university.
Take home point: Consider taking some of
your pre-med classes elsewhere if you are hitting a wall
here. Many successful medical school applicants have
done this. </p>

<p>...Myth #24.
I NEED TO MAJOR IN BIOLOGY OR SOME
OTHER SCIENCE.</p>

<p>False. You have to complete enough of the
pre-med science requirements and other coursework to
demonstrate a challenging curriculum and to prepare
for the MCAT. Other than that, you can major in
anything. Moreover, non ‘pre-med’ major classes are
often less intense, less grade-focused, less ‘pre-med,’
and more enjoyable.
The bottom line question regarding academic
requirements is: ‘will this candidate be able to handle
medical school?’ You can certainly demonstrate this by
majoring in something that you really like. Whether
that happens to be biology, chemistry, poetry or history
– that is up to you. If you are passionate about your
work, you are much more likely to learn, get better
grades, be a happier person, get better rec letters, and
eventually be a better physician. I personally love
science and had a science-focused human biology major.
One of the reasons I was able to keep my love for
science was that I replaced ‘pre-med weeder’ courses
for upper division classes when it made sense to do so.
If you personally don’t love science, you are probably
better off as a pre-med majoring in a subject for which
you have passion. Medical schools do not want to be
filled with science majors
I have known many successful pre-meds to
actually take the bulk of their pre-med classes after college,
or even all of them. long as you take enough
science classes to prove that you can survive in medical
school, you can major in anything you want.
Take home point: Major in the field that
interests you, non-science or science, while still
completing a threshold of pre-med science
requirements.*</p>

<p><a href="http://scope.beagooddoctor.org/documents/Pre-med_Handout.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://scope.beagooddoctor.org/documents/Pre-med_Handout.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

35

<p>
[quote]
I don't think that students skipping out of the weeders is nesscarily a bad thing. It lowers the class size(nobody wants to take a 600+ class. and every bit helps).</p>

<p>It gets the students to their appropriate level. JC classes and AP credit is all the preparation that students need to tackle the upper div courses. So why put up with the trouble with harsh graders in the first place? I mean the material is the same everywhere. The only purpose of weeders is to weed people out of programs that they can't handle. But if they can circumnavigate the system via JC or AP courses( the same courses that they wouldn't have passed had they took it at Cal) and still pass the upper div courses, then that defeats the purpose of weeders because they proved that they're "good enough".</p>

<p>And if anything, by skipping the weeders, the students are actually increasing the graduation rate, something that not only helps out the school, but the students as well.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The issue is one of fairness. I personally think that all students (transfers and freshmen-admits) should be allowed to skip over weeders. Or, even better, that there should be no weeders in the first place. </p>

<p>But, as it stands now, the freshmen-admits have to take weeders and many JC transfers don't. The problem is that they are later going to compete for the same med-school spots, and those spots may be given to a JC transfer over a freshmen-admit simply because the former has better grades because he didn't have to take weeders.</p>

36

<p>does this JC/freshmen weeder stuff apply only to the more "pre-med crazy" schools like Cal, or would it be for any type of school (probably public ones)?</p>

37

<p>
[quote]
does this JC/freshmen weeder stuff apply only to the more "pre-med crazy" schools like Cal, or would it be for any type of school (probably public ones)?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's actually a quite generalizable point, which is that, sadly, med school adcoms don't seem to provide sufficient compensation for difficult (read: harshly graded) coursework. While it's obviously best to take difficult coursework and get A's, the fact is, most people can't do that, and so as a second-best option, it is usually better to take easy courses and get A's. A corollary is that it is better to not take a difficult class at all than to take it and get a bad grade. </p>

<p>I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you have a bad GPA, med school adcoms won't care why. All they'll see is that you have a bad GPA and then probably reject you. That's the way the game is played. Sad but true.</p>

38

<p>if i wanted to go to a mid-tier public school like maybe one of the middle-range UCs, would i be better off in regular weeders or JC in the summer? b/c i know at any college, there's going to be fierce premed competition, but i guess i'm hoping that it won't be too bad at a midrange public. any thoughts sakky or anyone else?</p>

39

<p>It'll be fierce competition everywhere you go, especially most mid-range public schools.</p>

40

<p>exactly, so i don't understand why there's a generalized opinion to go to a "lesser" school b/c it's easier to get a higher GPA? it's just as hard there, and wouldn't the more cunning prospective premeds know about this and go to the lesser schools, resulting in sometimes worse competition than in better schools?</p>