Canadian vs. British M.Sc. Graduate Programs

Graduate School
21

<p>Hi nauru, </p>

<p>Thanks for the feedback. Just to elaborate on my financial situation, I am being funded to study Biomedical Engineering at Oxford specifically. However, if I am not accepted to Oxford, I have the option of pursuing my education in a similar area of study at another university in an English speaking country outside the United States. However, I am not allowed to apply to schools in specific cities such as London or Cambridge, which precludes Cambridge and LSE, unfortunately. Chemical Engineering, and the goal of pursuing managerial consulting work after graduation may seem like a mismatch, but it is my hope to draw upon my undergraduate experience in management and the sciences to become a value-added employee consulting for a company like Pfizer. In this situation, I might draw from my understanding of engineering but work on the financial side of the company. My eventual goal is to pursue an MBA, but I want to have a solid engineering background beforehand.</p>

<p>Hi jmleadpipe, </p>

<p>I appreciate the advice. Toronto has a great program, but I have applied and not heard back from their department. The Toronto program is research-oriented, and while I find that interesting, I am more focused on a course-based program. I did not apply to Waterloo because I was not aware of the caliber of their program. Also, you mentioned "since OP's decision is already made." I am new to the lingo...Am I OP? If so, my decision is far from made. My assessment of the situation is...</p>

<p>McGill is a great program... a top choice along with Manchester and Nottingham after Oxford. McGill's strength is that it has on-campus recruiting through both Bain and McKinsey. Manchester does not have this, but Nottingham and Oxford do. However, I am a little concerned that McGill is a longer program. If the extra 8 months of graduate school will be especially valuable, then I am not averse to the extra time, though.</p>

<p>Manchester is also a top-choice, which ranks highly along with McGill. Interestingly, Manchester was ranked higher than McGill in about half of the rankings that I looked at, but Financial Times (granted they are UK-centered) ranked Manchester's business school much higher than McGill's (22 vs. 96). (This may be important in relation to on-campus recruiting) However, Manchester, even though it is one of the largest schools in Britain and advertises being the "number 1 choice" for British employers, has no campus recruiting presence through Bain or McKinsey and other companies while McGill does. Also, while Manchester is ranked highly by international publications like Newsweek, Shanghai Jiao Tong University’s Institute of Higher Education, and THES, Nottingham is ranked better across the board according to virtually all British publications in relation to Manchester. (<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/graphics/2003/06/27/unibigpic.jpg)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/graphics/2003/06/27/unibigpic.jpg)&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>Thanks again for all of the advice.
Richard</p>

22

<p>Rfox,</p>

<p>Although Bain and McKinsey recruit at McGill I am pretty sure only the Montreal office for both firms recruit there. The number of McGill grads who end up at McKinsey in Montreal is obviously quite large, but the overall presence of McGill grads at McKinsey worldwide is very small. I think you should call McGill and inquire about what exactly their "on campus" recruitment consists of. McKinsey recuits "on campus" at my school to, but I go to a second tier city-college type institution. The caveat is that they recruit only a very, very small number of students from a specific program my school excels at. They don't by any means, just set up a table in the lobby and hand out their business cards. It's the same thing for McGill. I would encourage you to go look up where many of the MBAs end up, via Canadian Business Week Online. You will find that a large majority go to work for companies such as Air Canada, Bell, CIBC, or L'Oreal. Once everyu five or six years one of their MBAs will end up at one of McKinsey or Bain's American office, but it is very rare.
I don't think simply looking at a list of recruiters who show up at the school without knowing anything else about the situation is a good idea.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that if you are deadset on working for a MC of the caliber of Bain or McKinsey in the US, your best bet is the upper crust of US schools. I realie your scholarship doesnt allow this though, so youre probably making due with what you must.</p>

<p>I would also contend that relying on international rankings, most of which are deeply flawed and taken with a grain of salt by employers anyways, to make your decision is a grave mistake. The overall prestige of a university as decidedm through some bogus methdology should not inform your decision on what grad school to attend. My two cents, though.</p>

23

<p>Hi jmleadpipe, </p>

<p>You make some very good points. I have contacted the recruiters, and now, I am contacting each of the individual schools about career offerings. When I say that I seek campus recruiting, I am simply trying to look for an "in" or connection with the hope that my resume will stand on its own. I am using McKinsey and Bain as a metric because they are top-notch, and it says something of the caliber of the school if these firms expend extra time and energy on recruiting at a particular school. </p>

<p>The rankings are far from fool-proof.. true, but absent other quantitative measures, they do provide what I perceive to be the best metric of prestige and overall academic excellence. It is important to understand the methodology, though. That is why the rankings are not the only basis for my decision even if I seem a little rankings obsessed in my posts. : )</p>

<p>This is a tough decision, but I really appreciate your continued advice.</p>

<p>Thanks,
Richard</p>

24

<p>Hi Rfox,</p>

<p>As a current McGill student here are my biased $0.02 :)</p>

<p>McGill's engineering program isn't stellar. Medicine/Law/Music are some of McGill's strengths at the grad level. What jmleadpipe said about Waterloo being the best in Canada in engineering is right on. However since you didn't apply there, it's besides the point.</p>

<p>If you want a good MC job it is true that the name of the school counts for a lot and McGill has a fantastic international reputation which is not based entirely on shameless tooting-of-own-horn type activities. I am currently in the process of choosing grad schools as well and after my degree I want to work as a consultant as well. I was toying between Harvard and Hopkins (both great for my program) and while,yes, the Big Three are supposed to be bastions of ivy league elitism but if you work hard and network effectively nothing is out of reach. Hence I have decided to attend Hopkins. The world is not enslaved by HYP/Oxbridge grads.</p>

<p>I know that, after graduation, several of my friends are going to work for the Big Three and there are several who are going to join corporations like Bloomberg/Blackstone etc and the majority of them are NOT working in Canada. Most of them are going to be working in offices in the States and a few are going to work in Europe. And most of my friends got these gigs either through campus recruitment or through connections. Of all the Canadian schools I'd say McGill is definitely the most well known amongst the general international populace.As an international student, I can vouch for this fact. McGill's international reputations and feel are some of the reasons I decided to enrol here. Queens/UBC/UofT/Waterloo are very home-grown Canadian fodder.</p>

<p>If you do decide to come to McGill, you'll find that you have to ferret out the existing fantastic opportunities and there are a lot of them. For a school that has been around for quite a while, it's as streamlined as it could be. However, if you're independent, smart and prepared to work hard and take initiative it's a wonderful place.</p>

<p>When I decided to come matriculate here, four years ago, turning down offers from places like Columbia, Brown and Williams I was certainly a bit concerned about how much how I was going to lose out on the whole networking opportunites thing that the ivies are purported to be warehouses of. My experience here has been bittersweet.The beauracracy has been disappointing but the opportunities have not. I have been able to use the McGill name to land good summer internships, and get into good grad schools.If you are at all concerned about location, McGill has an advantage there. I don't think any school on the east coast can beat McGill's location: downtown Montreal! </p>

<p>It's easy to love or hate McGill.</p>

<p>p.s.- Since jmleadpipe doesn't attend the school, I'd take his take on the 'peddling false hopes to UG and grad students as to the value of the McGill brand name' with lots of grains of salt.</p>

25

<p>Although I dont doubt that FVirile attends McGill, to call his (or her) take on McGill biased is a bit of an understatement. Maybe all of his friends are now working top flight jobs at minternationally know firms, jetting from New York to Paris and mingling with celebreties and models. Maybe FVirile just knew a batch of OUTSTANDING graduates, because here is a rundown of the jobs currently held by graduates I know:</p>

<ol>
<li>Works for engineering firm in Longeuil</li>
<li>Works for engineering firm in Montreal</li>
<li>Works at a bookstore</li>
<li>Works Retail</li>
<li>Works Retail</li>
<li>Works for a non-profit</li>
<li>Works in a bank downtown (doing customer service).</li>
</ol>

<p>I guess this is a case of he said, I said, but I really have no annecdotal evidence that would allow me to say, with a clear mind, that McGill has the same type of opportunities available to you as truly elite schools such as Columbia or Williams which FVirile allegedly (can`t...stop...laughing!) rejected in favor of McGill.
As I said, Im not calling FVirile a liar, but his information is at best dubious, at worst a flat out lie. McGill sends MAYBE a half dozen students every year to the big three consulting firms and most of these students are from the MBA program. Maybe all of this years crop turned out to be friends of FVirile, but to pretend that McGill is a pipeline to top consulting firms is a lie, pure and simple.

As I said, I`m not trying to be a hater, but the FVirile approach is pretty much what I was talking about when I said McGill prides itself on "peddling false hopes to UG and grad students." If you based your decision on what FVirile said about McGill, you would think you were enrolling in a HYP caliber joint where MC firms will be BEGGING for your services upon graduation. Is this really the case? I would encourage you to do some more dilligent research to find out.</p>

<p>(But here`s a hint to get you started: NO!)</p>

26

<p>jmleadpipe's comments are far more sober than FVirile's. Quite a few McGill grads have ended up here at LSE for a masters because they couldn't find a decent job with their McGill degree.</p>

27

<p>Jmleadpipe obviously did not read my post carefully.</p>

<p>Nowhere did I insinuate that consultancy companies come begging to you (I am sorry, but they don't go begging anywhere), nor did I imply that McGill serves as a pipeline to those kind of jobs. If you network and keep your eyes and ears open, it's very realistic that you might land a job at these companies.There is never any guarantee, but, yes if you want to go into business Toronto(citywise) is where it is now in Canada.</p>

<p>Jmleadpipe: Maybe your leaden head and bitter approach prevents you from thinking that there are certainly many outstanding kids who attend McGill. Yes, most of my friends are Type As/overachievers who are a part of the international jet-set crowd. However, it is a very large school and not everyone at McGill ends up going places. </p>

<p>Also, not everyone is a prestige whore like yourself. Life doesn't start or end at the Ivies. Some of my friends similarly turned down the Ivies before deciding to come here for their undergrad and we are all going exciting places. Not everyone's sense of self is derived from the name of the school that he/she attends.</p>

<p>To the op: For the price you'll be paying you'll be getting a very good education. I repeat: the opportunities are there; you'll have to ferret those out yourself. However, it is easy to get overwhelmed at a place like McGill. But, since you are a grad student you should be better equipped to handle stuff.</p>

<p>However, McGill's business program (at least at the undergrad leve) is a joke.</p>

<p>I did make a mistake in the previous post.McGill is not as streamlined as it could be.It's very beauracratic.</p>

<p>I do not regret coming to McGill at all. I got a fantastic education (in the sciences), spent time in a wonderful city,have made friends from all over, from Lesotho to Indonesia and I recommend the school to people who know what they want and are go getters.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

28

<p>FVirile,</p>

<p>I think you did a good job of editing your first post in your second. As the OP may realize after reading your second post, a lot of the praise you originally heaped on McGill needs sto come with a serious grain of salt.</p>

<p>Are there very good students at McGill? Of course, but there are aslo CEGEP students who got in with 22 R-Scores (equivalent of about a 65-68% average, and no, I'm not kidding about that) so to pretend that mcGill is of the same pedigree as the schools you allegedly rejected is pretty far fetched.
Furthermore, Columbia and Williams have some of the top profs in the world whereas McGill's claim to fame is Charles Taylor, a few people in Neuroscience, and that's about it.
I really dont think people understand this, but if you went to McGill instead of Columbia, for either grad school or undergrad, you are NOT attending a school of the same caliber as the one you choe not to attend and you will likely NOT have the same opportunities as a Columbia grad, period.
FVirile, it's great that you enjoyed yourself and met people from all over the world, but to pretend that McGill is anything more than a very good Canadian school based on a very small (and I would guess, fake) sample is pretty misleading for the OP.</p>

<p>When it comes down to it, all the OP needs to know about McGill is the following:</p>

<p>Pros: Best or second best Canadian school that is a fantastic bargain, even for an international student, located in a wonderful city. Very good for hard sciences and medicine.</p>

<p>Cons: NOT a substitute for Harvard, Yale, Williams, Princeton, Amherts, Cornell (ect.ect.ect) nor comprable in any way, shape or form. Very poor by any standard, with an endowment under $500 Million for close to 35,000 studnets. Limited world class faculty and very lax admission policies, especially for Quebecs.</p>

<p>If FVirile feels like refuting any of this, I would ecnourage him to do so. If not, I think the OP would do best to realize that FVirile's original "advice" was at best biased and at worst made up.</p>

29

<p>Jmleadpipe,</p>

<p>The fact that you don't attend McGill manifests itself in the inaccuracies that litter your posts.</p>

<p>McGill's endowment isn't great but it's a lot more than what you say. It's about 930 million for 31,000 kids. The large number of kids who attend McGill is an issue but it's a public insitution and it's the most selective in Canada with the highest entering grade point average. The Montreal kids who get in probably have it easy. Similar to the California kids who get in at the UCs. However the strength of the student body is demonstrated by the fact that McGill has the highest number of Rhodes Scholars after HYP and that McGill students win the most number of national/international prizes/awards for a Canadian school.</p>

<p>For someone who doesn't attend McGill you sure seem to pose like one who knows. McGill's Law/Science/Music/Medicine programs are all great.If you look at the pedigree of the faculty it's impeccable.</p>

<p>For someone who places such a whole lot of importance on the Ivies, I feel sorry for you that you have to attend a second tier school. I want to reassure you that even though you attend a school of not-so-fine caliber, not all is lost and that there still is hope for people like you in the world.</p>

<p>To the OP: if you decide to come to McGill be prepared to work hard and you will be rewarded. From the schools you are choosing only Oxford has a decidely better name.</p>

30

<p>OP, I would urge you not to be misled by FVirile's fawning all over this school. The grade point average reported to rankings magazines does not include quebec applicants (to the best of my knowledge, or international students (definitely true), all of whom can get in with very mediocre profiles to be honest. So please, do some hard research before making this decision. FVirile's posts do not represent anything even remotely near the typical experience of McGill students, and they paint a totally distorted image of the school. McGill students have developed a bit of a reputation for overzealous self-promotion, unfortunately. Hopefully that will subside though, because it actually is a very good university but many of the students are a bit insecure for some reason and feel the need to prop up its image (and often go too far).</p>

31

<p>OP,</p>

<p>I would urge you to consider the tone of FVirile's rather immature last post as well as nauru's above post and make your own decision about which side seems the most level headed here.</p>

<p>I never suggested that McGill was a bad or even mediocre university. On the contrary, it is a fine institution that gives a great education for a very affordable pricetag. In terms of cost vs. what you are getting as an education, it is probably in the top ten in the world, honestly, especially for Quebec kids.</p>

<p>That said, this type of accessibility comes at a cost. The faculty is good but by no means impressive, faculties are badly in need of renovations and the student body, although butressed by some extremely bright students, is not at all of the caliber of any US Ivy league or even most of the large US state schools. Indeed, CEGEP students applying to McGill need basically passing grades to get into education, engineering, and several social sciences disciplines. High school students from elsewhere in Canada may need higher averages to get in, but we will never know because McGill does not realease these stats to the public.</p>

<p>My problem has never been with McGill per se, but rather with overzealous students such as FVirile who will, as nauru pointed out, fawn over their school with little scrupples as to how accurate or potentially misleading their information is, which in this case, it most certainly is.</p>

<p>As nauru pointed out, I would strongly suggest you do some independent research before you make this choice. you may, in the end, pick McGill and I think there are numerous very good reasons to pick this school for an Msc. I have several friends who are doing Mscs, MAs, and attending law school (Im a poli sci grad) at McGill and most of them are pleased with the education and especially the cost they are getting it at. None of them, however, are delusional to the point of thinking their school has the money or the infrastrucutre to compete with schools like HYP.</p>

<p>FVirile can (and will) accuse me all he wants of attending a second tier university, being a high school dropout, or even being the Devil himself. Maybe I am, we will never know. I would suggest however, that I am just trying to post a "buyer beware" type of warning to you that will hopefully nuance some of what you will hear from apparently insecure students such as FVirile and, at times perhaps, McGill itself.</p>