<p>Even without the money, I'd go for Grinnell over Carleton for a daughter. The school has such a friendly, pleasant tone, and very tolerant and diverse because of its international students. - If this school were anywhere but the midwest, it would be almost impossible to get into.
My D seriously considered Grinnell and wore their T-shirt around where we live (CA) during her college app process. You'd be surprised how much attention it drew! People who recognized it were ecstatic when they saw it- especially grads. I hope your D takes advantage of this opportunity!</p>
<p>Kenyon has become extremely popular among kids who are looking at LACs. It is a wildly popular choice among private school kids, I know. Macalester has an international flavor and for some reason is pretty hot. Grinnell has come up on the scene more lately and because of some generous merit aid and some very well targeted marketing. This year I know 3 kids going there which to me is a lot considering where we are located. I know a half dozen going to Kenyon, and 4 who are probably going to Macalester. Everyone I know who was accepted to Carleton is going elsewhere. Similar stats for the last 3 years. I only know one kid at Carleton from about 8 years ago. No wonder they are so actively waitlisting these days.</p>
<p>Jamimon, I hear what you're saying but the numbers don't support it. Carleton has the lowest acceptance rate, the highest yield, and the strongest entering class (1400 average SAT last year) of the four. Plus they've only been taking a handful of kids off their waitlist.</p>
<p>Grinnell is in a small town that is not near to a major city. The town is not even"cute". Northfield is an historic town with many shops and beautiful old homes.There is a shuttle to the twin cities. That made the difference for my son. I liked Grinnell very much in spite of its location.Also, St. Olaf is in Northfield. The town definitely has a "college town" feel to it.</p>
<p>The town is irrelevent to our daughter, but I appreciate the comment.</p>
<p>Ditto on the internship opportunities at St. Mary's; daughter interned at a government agency in D.C. and then was hired right out of college at same agency.</p>
<p>Carleton did not take any off the waitlist last year.</p>
<p>Parent2009 - I'm with you on academics and selectively: Carleton, Grinnell, Mac and Kenyon. I hear that Grinnell is pulling at your rational side, but I'm feeling your vibes of preferring Carleton due to its higher "ranking" (for whatever that's worth). I am with dmd - visit both (again) and hope she prefers Grinnell. Even with the merit award, it can't make up for the "what if" she'll be feeling if the only reason she chooses it is for the $$.</p>
<p>I can't imagine anyone, blindfolded, would find the least bit difference in the academics at Carleton and those at Grinnell. The faculty come from the same pool, and which school has which has more to do with what openings there were the years they originally applied for jobs than anything else. Both schools are rich, and can pretty much buy anything in the way of facilities they want. (For what it's worth, which is little, Carleton's endowment is about $550 million, about the size of Mount Holyoke's; Grinnell's is about $1.1 billion, or about the size of Smith's or Williams'.) One big difference is that, from their website, you will notice that Carlton has moved, and is now in Aruba (check out the photos.) They are part of the same "affiliated programs" for foreign study. There may be a major or two that Grinnell has that Carleton doesn't, and vice versa.</p>
<p>They probably have different school colors.</p>
<p>Quirky: Grinnell (both location and students) and Carleton (students, but not location).<br>
Theatre interest might be better at Carleton. I don't remember seeing a big theatre program at Grinnell, but I'm pretty sure Carleton had good theatre facilities. Again, St. Mary's has a new student union with great theatre facillities. How comfortable does your daughter feel going that far away from home? If you live in Virginia, St. Mary's might be more comfortable. I don't see the St. Mary's students as quirky; however, the politics are definitely progressive. Has your daughter visited yet? My impression of Carleton is that it has more of a traditional "Ivy" feel to the campus. I think the schools "feel" different enough that she'll come away with a very good sense of which one is "more her."</p>
<p>Well, after spending all too much time today poking around on the web I've come to the conclusion that (endowment) money talks: any gap between Carleton and Grinnell is closing. Applications to Grinnell were up 20 percent from 2003 to 2004, the acceptance rate for "actionable" applications dropped from 63 to 49 percent in the same year, and the average SAT score for the entering class shot up 30 points. These are large gains that Grinnell's dean of admissions attributes to more aggressive marketing by the college, particularly the Newsweek article pegging Grinnell as the best "all around" college in the USA. You have to figure that Grinnell will improve in the rankings as a result of these gains.</p>
<p>One interesting piece of information that I stumbled upon on Grinnell's website was a debate in the admissions office on whether the college should continue reporting admissions statistics based on the percent of "actionable" -- in other words, completed -- applications received or should, "as Carleton and Macalaster do," report statistics based on ALL applications received. According to Grinnell, this would lower the reported acceptance rate to 40 percent. In the end, the committee decided that the "fair" thing to do would be to come to a middle ground and only report as denied applications those that were completed enough for the committee to pretty much know that, once completed, they would result in a denial.</p>
<p>Another interesting debate that I ran across was how long Grinnell feels it should -- and can afford to -- award merit aid to keep bringing in top students. The conclusion was that they're not there yet, but that they're getting close. I wouldn't be surprised to see the practice end before my daughter graduates.</p>
<p>Readermom, our daughter has visited every college she's applied to, including St. Mary's, and she was turned off by St. Mary's even more remote than Grinnell location.</p>
<p>Let me add that Maize&Blue has me properly pegged: the rankings have been giving me pause. My daughter likes Grinnell better, but it's hard to turn down a top-5 liberal arts college for a lower-ranked one when money really isn't an issue. But I'm more comfortable with it now having debated it with you all (and with myself).</p>
<p>There are distinctions to be made among the schools under discussion here, but noting that one is a "top 5 liberal arts college" is one of the least important, particularly given the comparison set. </p>
<p>Originaloog makes a compelling case for Wooster, and one could likely take a different set of measurements, particularly inputs v. outputs, and put Wooster, Earlham, Hope, Reed and Grinnell in a top 5. (Mini may have already done this <grin>)</grin></p>
<p>I don't know much about St. Mary's, but I can say with confidence that your D has great opportunities at Carleton, Grinnell and Wooster. Good luck to her.</p>
<p>Thanks, reidm. I generally agree with you, although I do have to say that the relative rankings between Carleton, Grinnell and Wooster have to mean SOMETHING. At a minimum, they suggest that the first two of these schools have far more qualified students and superior financial resources to Wooster, right?</p>
<p>For what it's worth, D applied/admitted to Grinnell and Carleton; visited and choose not to apply Wooster. Offered $10k Grinnell; $0 at Carleton.
Has done overnights, etc. at both Grinnell and Carleton and liked Grinnell more - kids were nicer. Carleton had a vague "grind" feel to her.</p>
<p>"I generally agree with you, although I do have to say that the relative rankings between Carleton, Grinnell and Wooster have to mean SOMETHING. At a minimum, they suggest that the first two of these schools have far more qualified students and superior financial resources to Wooster, right?"</p>
<p>Well, the kids at Carleton and Grinnell, in aggregate, do have higher SAT scores and high school GPAs and this could be an attractive feature of any school. It was to me when I was picking schools for myself. A recruiter told me that only one school in the country, Harvard, was going to have more National Merit Scholars on their campus than found at her school, and rightly or wrongly, I was sold right then. </p>
<p>As for financial resources, the question there is how do those resources affect individual students? If the schools spend all their money on merit aid just to get the kids there, maybe not much. If stipends are available for a great number of kids to do summer research, probably. If financial strength keeps student/teacher ratios low, maybe quite a bit. If the money is spent on big name researchers or novelists that teach one seminar a year, unlikely. And so on.</p>
<p>Financial resources can be trumped by great teaching and intelligent design of the school's learning environment, particularly at small schools where that environment is more manageable. Earlham and Beloit are two schools that are not loaded with money, but do a briliant job of turning out successful and happy graduates.</p>
<p>Interestingly, Wooster and Carleton were on my nephew's app list last go 'round and I specifically asked a LAC and a Big Ten uni professor that I know what they thought about those two schools, along with two others on his list, Colgate and Kenyon. They indicated that they thought the faculties at Carleton and Colgate were slightly stronger across the board, that Kenyon excelled in a handful of disciplines and was solid in the rest, with Wooster just a bit below those levels. They had good things to say about the intellectual cultures at Carleton and Kenyon. But they both remarked independently, and unprompted, that at Wooster the full resources of the school were focused to make certain that each individual student's academic needs and interests were met, and in a way not matched by many other schools, large or small. </p>
<p>Now these are only two opinions, though both of these professors regularly evaluate peer school departments in their disciplines (History and Political Science, respectively). Their comments, along with the recent experience of a niece and a friend's son, lead me to believe that a strong student would be challenged and successful at Wooster. </p>
<p>Does all this mean that your D should go to Wooster? Not in my book, but it does mean that factors other than USNEWS rank and financial strength should be the most heavily weighted in a decision. Academic strength should be an important factor but there is not enough difference in this case to make that the decisive element. Your Ds comparison of Carleton and Grinnell students, your positive use of the word "quirky" and your original note re: merit aid caused me to lean toward Grinnell for your D, but I'd also congratulate her for picking Carleton or Wooster, as I think she would thrive at all three schools.</p>