Can't Decide: Davidson, Duke, Wake or FSU

College Search & Selection
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<p>Fellow Parents:</p>

<p>My head is spinning. I am trying to help S1 find the right school at the right cost. We live in Orlando, FL. He still has some time to decide but since I am a huge planner I really want to have something sort of settled just because I sleep better that way. </p>

<p>I've been lurking the threads here and you people are amazingly helpful and knowledgeable. </p>

<p>S1 is a pretty good athlete with a weighted 4.0 GPA, 3.5 unweighted. He has hasn't taken the ACT or SAT yet and did pretty good on the PSAT but no where near National Merit Scholar level. He MIGHT want to play football in college which puts schools like Wofford, Furman, Davidson and Elon seriously in the discussion. He could maybe walk-on at Wake or Duke but no way he plays at Florida State. He is Hispanic/bilingual (my wife is from Guatemala) and has better than average EC and community service, which is hard to do since football here in the South is an 11 month a year job. They constant weight lift and run. </p>

<p>We are upper middle class. I have prepaid tuition plans for both my kids and a little money in a 529 thing. The net cost matters but it isn't a big deal. He wants a good overall college experience which means, basically, not all work but he doesn't want to be around a bunch of drunk rednecks 24/7 either which is basically what I remember about FSU. Seriously. Actually, FSU had great diversity but it is a big, state supported, public school and it seemed everyone there spent every second trying to get drunk and laid. </p>

<p>I studied. It paid off. I passed the CPA exam and I am now a tenured professor at a CC. </p>

<p>My son wants to study business and possibly get a sports MBA or study Poly Sci so that he can teach at a CC like I do. He wants to teach at a CC either way, actually. </p>

<p>I know a good bit about FSU in Tally. I love Davidson but, you know, it seems a bit intense. Wake is the right size and probably not as tough to survive as Duke or Davidson but somehow Wake seems less than FSU so why go out of state and pay all that money? </p>

<p>I know I am making no sense. Like I said my head is spinning. </p>

<p>I guess I am wondering if, after FA, places like Wake are close enough in cost that they are "secretly" better deals than just going up the street to the local state school. By the way, everyone here goes to UCF. S1 likes UCF but I don't. I want him to reach higher than that. </p>

<p>I also wonder this: is it realistic to walk-on and play football and still somehow compete with students at Wake or Duke? That sounds impossible to me: any other walk-on parents here? Did the kid survive? </p>

<p>Is Duke as hard work wise as it sounds? It sounds like ALL work and no play. </p>

<p>Any insights on Furman? </p>

<p>Well, thanks if anyone replies!!</p>

<p>Oh one more thing. Bottom line: we want a school that is fair with FA and mixes athletic opportunities (football) with a real emphasis on academics. Like Davidson or Elon. I guess I already know what we want maybe I just need to hear someone say my instincts are right.</p>

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<p>Duke is much more selective than any of the other schools you listed. If your son’s PSAT was nowhere near the NMF cutoff levels and his performance on the SAT mirrors the PSAT, he’ll probably have a very small chance at being accepted to Duke, even as an URM.</p>

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<p>I’m going to chime in on a few of the schools you mentioned. S1 is a very high stat kid. Not going to bore you with his numbers - but I assure you they were stellar. Applied ED to Duke and was deferred and then did not get in. Very tough school to get into - even for a URM (which we are not). Also - Duke does not have undergraduate business.</p>

<p>S1 attends Wake and I highly recommend it. Great academics - great school spirit - very good fit for someone who loves sports. Great undergrad business program - Calloway School. Calloway graduates have the highest pass rate on the CPA exam in the nation. We are very pleased with the FA we receive. Our experience was exactly what you describe - the most expensive sticker price became the most affordable option after the FA pkg was rcvd. Our income went up a few thousand last year - so FA for coming year went down a bit - but still very good deal - no complaints.</p>

<p>Davidson is a bit more selective than Elon - not sure if the GPA you have quoted is enough. Elon is more realistic - based on GPA. Think very highly of Elon - another school S1 was accepted at and we like it for S2 as well. I kind of think of Elon as “Wake lite” - some similarities - but a little easier to get into. Hope this has helped.</p>

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<p>Very helpful and Rockville I’ve been reading your posts on various threads all day. Thank you both. </p>

<p>Two things I have to keep reminding myself and things will clear up: (1) football is a stupid sport. Stop thinking about it. You only go to college to play football if you have a shot at the NFL or you want to be a coach one day. (2) super elite schools are better left for the really, really truly gifted people out there. </p>

<p>When I get those thought into my thick skull it simplifies down to Wake and FSU. One great thing about FSU is that it is about 15% hispanic and that is a huge plus for us. It isn’t bad academically and it is dirt cheap since we live in FL. Wake is the kind of school I would have dreamed about going too – and I’m pretty sure I will send him to Wake’s precollege experience think – they call it LENS – next year. </p>

<p>Simple. Apply to FSU and Wake and if he gets into both and it is remotely close financially I’ll let him decide. </p>

<p>I hear what you are saying about Elon. Elon has made great strides. I agree that Elon is similar to Wake and is a Wake “light” sort of. It is in the right state and has a good size, not to freaking big, not too darn small. I’ve researched the heck out of Elon on multiple sources and sites and I like it but I am not sure it has a good enough rep, outside of NC, to make it worthwhile. Then again, that might be changing. </p>

<p>And, he could maybe play football there. They make it clear they need walk-ons. Of course, football is just a stupid game. I’ve got to keep saying that. In my opinion, it would very hard to play football and keep up. I know many kids do it but still – my instincts tell me it isn’t worth it.</p>

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<p>If you’re upper middle class, schools like Wake won’t give you aid. I also agree there’s a huge differnece between getting into Duke and the others which won’t be bridged by being a potential football walk on. That’s the one sschool here I’d pay up for.</p>

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<p>I don’t know enough about football from the players perspective to comment on that - but I don’t think you should rule it out either. Certainly if you visit - speak with a coach and learn more about your options there. If you are researching Elon, I always recommend the George Keller book, “Transforming a College” - quick read about how over a 15 year span Elon was transformed from a small regional college into a rapidly rising university. I think Elon is now quite well known on the east coast.</p>

<p>Redroses - I have to completely disagree with your FA comment. I’m not sure what your definition of upper middle class is - but we are certainly not poor and got wonderful FA from Wake. My impression is that there is some prefential packaging going on - by that I mean my son was high stat for Wake and I think that may have helped with his pkg. But I always like to stress how generous Wake has been to our family.</p>

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<p>By upper middle class on CC and by a CPA’s standads, I’m assuming at least over $125K/yr. The average CPA makes $115K. And of course there is preferential packaging at all schools that do not meet need.</p>

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<p>I think your parenting instincts are great. There are all kinds of new and exciting things to discover. I think you have good ideas about what kind of schools to apply to (a variety is important, of course). If FSU seems too zoolike, what about one of the other excellent Florida schools? They have a great reputation out of state. But if finances aren’t going to be that much of a problem, then one of those other schools would be great, too. I’d say just go with the process–you and your son may change your minds a dozen times before you’re done.</p>

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<p>Heard there’s a team out in California that is going to desperately need some walk ons in a few short years, maybe he can give it a go out there? </p>

<p>But seriously, let him apply to wherever, and inform him on the financial aspects of it, so have a few financial safeties in there. </p>

<p>Will he have full Bright Futures benefits?</p>

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<p>Duke university</p>

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<p>FSU [has</a> an excellent College of Business](<a href=“Rankings | Florida State University”>Rankings | Florida State University) and an education likely can be had at significant less expense than the alternatives. The FSU [political</a> science program is quite solid](<a href=“Rankings | Florida State University”>Rankings | Florida State University) as well.</p>

<p>As an FSU graduate, I realize that partying only occurs at FSU and not at your other suggested options. This can be an advantage, as some actually look at such adult decision taking as offering the potential for growth, where real life consequences impart a cost to poor risk assessment. ;)</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>Thanks again for the thoughts. </p>

<p>FSU, UCF and UF all have a lot in common because they are huge, public schools. Sure there is drunkenness and partying at all schools but my point, maybe I didn’t express it well, is that I don’t want him surrounded by low achievers and simple minded idiots. On the other hand, I don’t want him surrounded by people who spend wayyyyyy too much time on the third floor of a dusty library. There has to be a middle ground there somewhere. </p>

<p>I asked his HS counselor about Bright Futures and I forgot what she said. I am pretty sure he will qualify with his current profile if he can maintain it. I am not sure FL still funds Bright Futures though … so will have to check that. </p>

<p>I don’t think of FL schools as being “excellent.” The state of FL radically underfunds education. Like I said I went to FSU. I went there after graduating from a CommCollege because in FL CC’s do a great job for the first two years so many, many students stay at home for the first two years and go to the local CC. I now work at the same CC I graduated from in Orlando (Valencia). </p>

<p>I got a good education at FSU. I majored in acctg and was a CPA for 11 years. I didn’t renew my license a few years ago because I don’t need it. I am a tenured professor and this is my career not public accounting. FSU Mom of 2 – FSU is a good choice for my son. He fits the profile like a glove – sports obsessed and into sun & fun and working out. If his dad wasn’t an educator he would probably go to FSU or UF and that would be that. </p>

<p>Note: I do not make $115 or $125 a year. Maybe CPA’s who are partners in their own successful offices do but not all CPA’s make that kind of money. That is not the average in my opinion, at least not down here in the state income tax free South. I made $77 last year which is pretty good and my income is stable because no matter how bad the economy gets I have a job, thank God, not bragging. I do have a masters in acctg from FSU also. </p>

<p>So thanks for the different perspectives. </p>

<p>Looking for a middle ground. A place where academics are #1 but you are not surrounded by people who read constantly and … how should I put it without offending people? I don’t know. But as I scan this board I realize how different my values are compared to the majority here. For example, this board clearly skews towards people who are mad literate and big-time into academics. A small LAC in the Northeast where it is cold 6 months out of the year is light years away from what a young person in this part of the country wants. It sounds like a place where you work all day and then go home to study all night. No sun. No fun. </p>

<p>Am I making people in the South sound like uneducated monkeys? I do not speak for everyone. Obviously. North Carolina and Virginia, which, by the way, is hardly in the South if you look at a map, even though they fought with the South in that big war 200 years ago, are states that seem to value and fund education. Florida, on the other hand, seems to value the beach culture. Other Southern states are somewhat poor and have all the social problems that go with it. </p>

<p>So, yeah, UF is a great school and it is also a stunningly good value. Good point. Why not just go to UF? He went with his Hispanic High Achievers group on a college tour and was impressed by UF. This is after I told him until I was blue in the face it was the best school in FL. But since I went to FSU his G-Mom had him brainwashed from day one to hate UF. Once he saw the place and met some of the UF students he realized I was once again right. </p>

<p>UF is probably for grad school. </p>

<p>Maybe FSU for undergrad and then UF for grad. </p>

<p>Or Wake for undergrad then either FSU or UF for grad. </p>

<p>I want to send him to a pre-college enrichment/experience program next summer probably the one Wake does. That was he will have 3-4 weeks as a college kid in a completely new state. That might sell him on Wake. If not, he can go to FSU. </p>

<p>The wildcard is football. </p>

<p>If he goes a football camp or two and the coaches think he is good enough that changes everything. We take football wayyyyyyyy too seriously down here. It is a sickness. I can’t stop.</p>

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<p>I want to strongly encourage you to visit Wake Forest. It’s a wonderful, very undergrad-focused school filled with kids who have an excellent balance in their college lives. Smart kids who work hard (school’s nickname is Work Forest) and do spend a lot of time in their library. But they balance it with a good social life on a beautiful campus and a surprising variety of experiences available to undergrads, including athletes, such as a wonderful study abroad program. And the kids that come out of Wake are as prepared and as grounded as any graduates anywhere in the USA. </p>

<p>Wake’s size will be a big difference from your Florida options, but so also will its pricetag as it ain’t cheap. But Wake is presently making a big push to increase minority enrollment and this extends to how they spend their financial aid dollars. A big difference in their admissions process from other top schools is that Wake WANTS to interview the applicant. Character is a big deal for this school and the Wake approach resonates with many parents and their offspring.They’re employing a very holistic approach and trying to identify and attract kids that will fit on their campus and bring a lot of energy and prospective involvement in campus activities. </p>

<p>I don’t know how good a football player you have to be, but Wake’s size would also seem to be in your favor. Good luck!</p>

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<p>My D will be attending Furman in the fall so I can comment on that question. It is a great LAC with an exceptional focus on undergraduate research. D loved their classroom based discussion style of teaching. They are listed as a University but they are really an LAC. They do not have a specific business major but you can major in Accounting and Economics.</p>

<p>His Hispanic background might be a mixed blessing. Furman does not have a diverse student body so I am not sure how your son would feel about that. On the other hand, they are really pushing hard to attract a more diverse student body and can be generous with their merit money. The academics are rigorous, but they will be at most of the schools you mentioned. It is worth a visit and I would highly recommend if you do that he sit in on a class and have lunch.</p>

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<p>*I guess I am wondering if, after FA, places like Wake are close enough in cost that they are “secretly” better deals than just going up the street to the local state school. *</p>

<p>A lot is going to depend on your income and assets. Many schools will look at an upper-middle class income and expect you to pay for all/most with cash and loans. </p>

<p>Since money is an issue, cast a wide net…include some state schools. Include some schools that will give big merit for stats (when you know what his stats are).</p>

<p>Will he make National Hispanic? Did he indicate that he’s Hispanic on his PSAT? If not, contact the school and have the GC correct that with National Merit Corp.</p>

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<p>OP - please do an EFC calculator. If you are saying in your above post that your annual income is around $77,000 you should get great FA from Wake - but of course - the EFC calculator will also factor in your savings, parents ages, number of kids and so forth. Our income is higher and we get substantial aid - grant money and a subsidized Stafford loan from Wake - effectively cutting the price tag in half. Don’t assume you can’t afford it.</p>

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<p>I would advise against Florida State if your son gets into the other school’s you mentioned. They are all a cut above FSU in the quality of education their student’s receive. Look at UF and New College if he plans to remain in-state.</p>

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<p>What about the child’s dad’s income? </p>

<p>If you’re divorced, some schools will consider the NCP’s income.</p>

<p>Wake Forest, Davidson, and Duke will look at NCP info.</p>

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<p>FSU is substantially better in political science than UF. Why suggest UF when they have at least one inferior program in the primary area the student wants?</p>

<p>For example, consider: [A</a> Global Ranking of Political Science Departments - Simon Hix, London School of Economics](<a href=“http://personal.lse.ac.uk/hix/Working_Papers/Hix-PolStudiesReview-2004.pdf]A”>http://personal.lse.ac.uk/hix/Working_Papers/Hix-PolStudiesReview-2004.pdf)</p>