@marbles321 . Did you hear what happened to a BME senior at CWRU? Are you okay?
@Coloradomama I hadn’t really though about whether @marbles321 was male or female …
As a woman engineer working over 30 years with probably 80% or higher men … I have a few comments …
Yes, women have a bit of a different path to being seen as valuable members of a team, but I really disagree that the solution is to “learn to shut up and let men direct things”. Sure you can go with the flow, and have less direct disagreements with teammates, but you will not be seen or actually be a leader, an innovator, a candidate for advancement. I actually worry that females in particular who take the “seen but not heard” path are considered more decorative, or even gasp token … I almost feel a head tilt coming on …
Being confident, speaking up in appropriate manner, being seen as a competent equal to men, it’s got to be part of the persona you project.
If you want to be a manager or senior staff, then you have even a higher set of behavioral goals … none of which is to sit quietly and let the big boys decide.
You do want to be respectful of your bosses, your elders, your peers, your experts, your janitor … but not subservient in any way.
You need to develop social and interactive skills, work with the personality and skill set and smarts you have, find teams and organizations that appreciate your ability to work with others, etc. You need to take credit for ideas and work that you do, and make sure you are supportive, give credit where it is due, be trustworthy, be helpful …
and most importantly you need to add value to the team every day … both by doing your own work and by helping the team move toward achieving common goals.
Getting along with aggressive male and female colleagues … that is something that is difficult for both men and women. Women can be very aggressive, even or especially towards other women. Some companies also really reward aggression and what I consider bad behavior, back stabbing, poor team work, taking credit for others work … etc.
Women stereotypically do have better social skills, especially compared to some male stereotype engineer introverts, and women can add some humanity to the process. Their unique personalities in a mostly male environment may provide better working conditions and better team performance.
plus their contributions themselves.
@LanaHere we had a graduating BME senior on the devices track wind up dead.
@marbles321 Yes, my D told me that her TA told the class. TA said for the students to help one another and keep an eye out for signs. But they didn’t say which track. I am glad you are okay. Are things getting better for you?
@PickOne1 That was one of the best, most truthful summaries of the field I’ve heard to date. Thank you.
@marbles321 That was incredibly insensitive. The kid lost his life. Please show some respect.
To everyone else. This thread has fired me up, because I know marbles321 personally (given our small class size as has been mentioned here). I would like to provide some context, so you may judge the contents of this discussion knowing all the facts.
The BME capstone project here is stretched over two semesters. Marbles321 voluntarily left her first group after the first semester because she couldn’t get along with them, and so she joined up with a new group for the second semester. @Coloradomama , I don’t have credibility to confirm nor refute the gender inequality out in the field as you suggested (though PickOne1 seems like she has more than enough authority to speak on it), but here she was not the only female on the team, and the others had no issues.
Then, with her second team, there was problem after problem throughout the entire semester, centered around her, which I will refrain from telling details. But it was bad enough to where the professors became well aware of it, and it finally culminated with the lead instructor having to ask her to leave the team a few weeks ago. @Coloradomama, this time half of her team was female, and again, none of them had any problems of this sort. And if I’m not mistaken, their team lead was a female too (but I may very well be wrong about that part, don’t hold me to it).
@blueCWRU Your description of the Case BME community is spot on. There is no sabotage here.
Apologies to all for the rant, but this needed to be said.
@marbles321 I’ve had a few hours to calm down, and I still can’t get over your comment. How dare you try and twist the tragic death of our fellow student in an attempt to further your ridiculous crusade against this school. His family understandably wished to keep the details of his passing private, and so nobody knows under what circumstances it happened. How dare you try to imply it had ANYTHING to do with your hated BME devices track. Petty and ridiculous.
@longnights I prefer not to talk about what happened to that student. I was in class with that student. There are no details on the circumstances. I just made a simple statement. @LanaHere asked so I described it as accurately as I could in as few words as possible. He was found dead. We don’t know why.
@longnights He was on that track, that’s all. He was in danger of failing one of his courses, and then he disappeared. I don’t see it as a reflection on Case. These things happen at engineering universities.
@longnights I left both my capstone teams because nobody cared for the electrical engineering parts of the capstone that interested me. This was rather traumatic and I don’t appreciate being attacked on here.
I wish I had not pursued a BME major due to my experiences at Case and with other BME students. Very few BME students show a genuine interest in the electrical engineering parts of our major and are willing to read the documentation and datasheets to increase their knowledge as EEs. I was culturally incompatible with these students. I have a strong interest in EE and am not focused on just taking a capstone for a grade.
Many BME students found my interest in EE off putting. My first team isolated me from the slack channels about the project so I couldn’t contribute. Many students lack intensity about their area of focus.
My second BME team often used our technical meetings to discuss getting drunk and club music. I have no problem with this, but there was a general lack of interest in focusing on the project. This was very difficult to work with. I gently requested help in capstone for 6 weeks, and got no response from the students assigned to help me. I felt isolated and upset after many meetings. Students would show up to help me, sit around for a bit, and then leave because they thought everything was over their head, and refused to put in the time to understand what I was doing.
Also I have been part of a successful EECS capstone for over a year. EE students are invested in learning electrical engineering. I had no problem working with students from this background. My other projects have been recognized by this department.
Overall, I wish I had never put the time into trying to make the BME major work.
what is going on here
@LanaHere I’m not doing particularly well.
I was not removed by my professors from my second team. The female team lead asked the professor to remove me. This was done based on input from 2-3 female members of the team. The whole 7 person team was not consulted on this.
These females spent the weeks up to the split acting like my friend, and then I was emailed by the lead Professor I was off the team. This was very hurtful. I recently got an email from one of these members wishing me good luck, and I don’t know how to process it. All of the people involved in removing me from the team never contributed to my work towards this project. I requested help time and time again, and nothing came up so I kept working individually.
I asked one of the teammates about the split and he said well “it’s just a capstone” . My team generally had a nonchalant attitude about this project. This wasn’t compatible with my efforts.
@marbles321 don’t take it personally even if it feels that way. Your story reminds me of how Carly Fiorina was FIRED as the HP CEO. Read her story in TOUGH CHOICES, by Carly Fiorina, you may feel entirely better when you realize what you experienced is just human behaviors, and its not really anything about you. Those girls on your Capstone project, are like any board of any major company in the USA. Its how they are. You don’t have to be like them. This kind of “ganging up” happens all the time in industry to anyone that is deemed to “not fit in”. . The way to cope is, just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and FIND BETTER PEOPLE to hang with. As far as, “is it tough for women out there” it really all depends on the company, your coworkers and your boss. If you look, Tina Huang has sued Twitter.
Her entire discrimination lawsuit is available on line, search Twitter/Tina Huang. That will be a great eye opener for anyone that thinks it will be a “cake walk” in engineering. Case has prepared you for exactly what it will be like, the beauty of Case Western’s program.
Here is some info about Silicon Valley and women engineers. This is the good news, women my age lost these types of lawsuits and it was swept under the table,or women were blamed for being “non team players”. Today’s women they also lose the lawsuits but it gets into the internet and companies have to CHANGE! Its great news.
Tina Huang is a graduate of MIT, I do not know her, but I admire her greatly for pressing forward on her lawsuit in spite of enormous pressure to “settle” . It will blow the cover on all the practices that ended so many women’s careers in engineering.
Marbles- I am fairly certain you will be a great addition to whichever company you end up working for (or higher academic program you may join)… I admire your high standards and your pique… Keep it up… You are and will continue to be a valuable member of society.
And thank you for bringing this up… I do hope that whomever may be in charge at Case will make amends…