Censorship and closed minds do not always prevail!

<p>SS, have you seen or read the play? I've read it and seen several productions, including the most recent Broadway revival, and there was no ridicule whatsoever of the 'more traditional parents'. The show, although it does portray different aspects of many issues, is, first and foremost, a musical comedy. The vast majority of the 'laughs' are at the expense of the two main characters, the gay couple. Your comment about 'tolerance only going in one direction' is very far off the mark. This play is written as a farce to show the foibles of human behavior, values, ingrained expectations, and how all of that can be turned on its head when something unexpected happens. The arc of the story is as interesting for the girl's parents as it is for the boy's, and the whole point in the end is that they all come to a realization that people are people, despite their differences, a lesson that perhaps the Bishop should have allowed his followers to learn.</p>

<p>I have not seen La Cage but wish I had. I have seen The Birdcage which it is based upon. I recall when my daughter was much younger, she loved The Birdcage. Anyhow, isn't the theme in this story about celebrating differences and it points out the outrageousness of hiding those differences? I would like to think that any religious leader would espouse such a theme. The world needs to understand one another, which is not the same as agreeing with one another.</p>

<p>Just a total guess here -- but my assumption would be that the lesson of tolerance "taught" in La Cage didn't cause the furor. Possibly having several teenage male students appearing in full and flaming drag in the chorus (at least as I have seen the show) would be what caused the ban.</p>

<p>MusThCC....that could be so.</p>

<p>StickerShock...I am trying to understand your point of view in post #4. You were discussing the decision by the bishop of the Episcopal church to not allow a musical production depicting gay people and in so doing, you appeared to be making an analogy when you asked:</p>

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Would you insist that a synogogue open its doors to productions of Nazi propoganda plays?

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</p>

<p>The definitions of propaganda from Webster's International Dictionary that I have are:
1) (archaic) "a group of movement organized for spreading a particular doctrine or system of principles"
2) "dissemination of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause or a person"
3) a) "doctrines, ideas, arguments, facts, or allegations spread by deliberate effort through any medium of communication in order to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause"
3) b) "a public action or display having the purpose or the effect of furthering or hindering a cause"</p>

<p>I understood what you meant about Nazi propaganda. Do you believe that La Cage is also propaganda? I do not understand the analogy. I do not believe La Cage meets the definition of propaganda and is not akin to your positing a question about what a synagogue might allow in terms of Nazi PROPAGANDA (as opposed to plays that depict Nazis as La Cage depicts gay lifestyles but doesn't attempt to spread doctrine which is what propaganda is meant to do)</p>

<p>Propaganda is meant to further a cause or doctrine. A play or story depicting beliefs other than your own can raise awareness of differences but is not meant to further a cause or to indoctrinate.</p>

<p>Choices...The director/producer of this show willingly CHOSE this play knowing the churches stance and CHOSE to take this risk with the time, talent and emotions of these young performers. Shame on him/her. Whatever your beliefs about homosexuality, there is no doubt that this director did this knowing that it would cause a ruckus. The truth is that he/she got what she wanted either way... It forced people to discuss the play. That is the only problem I have with the whole subject. I have a gay sister and I have no problem w/homosexuality, I do have a problem with people who try to FORCE THEIR AGENDA on everyone else.</p>

<p>I'm kinda confused. Is putting on La Cage forcing an "agenda"? I never thought of it that way. If anything, censoring it is forcing an "agenda", in my view.</p>

<p>And what exactly IS the "agenda" in La Cage? Tolerance of differences? I don't think it is to promote the gay lifestyle. But in any case, the depiction of ideas in a play provokes thought, but doesn't force an issue on someone, I don't think. I watch things I don't agree with but can think about.</p>

<p>Also, as a side point.....those who participate in the play and those who watch it are not forced to do so. Disallowing people to participate or view something IS forcing an agenda.</p>

<p>***please realize I am just interested in your viewpoint and it has nothing to do with you as a person.....I like and welcome all members and enjoy hearing their points of view even if mine differ</p>

<p>Yes, choosing to put on this play in this church affiliated school is forcing an agenda. The church HAS an agenda and it's clearly stated it. That is what a church affiliated school is about! Having attended one for 16 years, I can assure you that the agenda was never hidden.</p>

<p>Wow</p>

<p>Can't we all just get along??</p>

<p>This is becoming way to personal and uncomfortable.</p>

<p>I don't take any offense, Soozie. I just believe that we all make choices and that this choice was clearly calculated.</p>

<p>kimoki...I see the discussion as provoking ideas and considering various views on this subject. I don't see healthy discussion as "not getting along." The message boards on CC (look beyond the MT Forum) is full of discussions on topics where posters respectfully share their views and attempt to understand others' points of view. As long as the discussion is not about the posters themselves, it is all good and surely is within the realm of CC's posting guidelines. We are discussing ideas we each hold, not one another. I fully respect and like every single poster on this thread whom I have entered into thread discussions with in the past. Their views on this topic doesn't alter my liking them, getting along with them, or respecting them. If anything, that is sorta what this topic is even about!</p>

<p>Sarahsmom....I cross posted with you but I hear your point of view. I wanted to make sure you knew that even if mine differs in some ways to yours, it has nothing whatsoever with my liking you as a poster and supporting you as a person.</p>

<p>In reference to #30, I agree and I appreciate and respect your input as well.</p>

<p>I think it's very healthy that people can respectfully disagree. <em>That</em> is what tolerance really is.</p>

<p>Alwaysamom, I have only seen the movie. Perhaps I'm making an assumption that it closely follows the play? Anyway, I did feel the straight parents in the movie were depicted in an unflattering way. (Senator leading a rigid Moral Majority group; anti-Semitic; his political partner is a hypocrite who uses prostitutes) Yes, it is a farce, and exaggerations are used in a musical comedy all the time. Why cast Nathan Lane if you're not looking for over-the-top performances? Yet from the start, it is obvious that the Senator & his wife are the ones who need to learn the lessons of acceptance. I'm no homophobe, but I sure wouldn't be thrilled if my daughter's MIL was a drag queen. Would you?</p>

<p>Soosievt, while I really enjoyed The Birdcage, I would absolutely classify it as propaganda. It is promoting a cause: raising kids in gay households, even one headed by a drag queen, should be viewed as being as normal as a more traditional home. Propoganda doesn't always have a negative connotation. But it is generally delivered in a heavy-handed way. As alwaysamom points out, this is a farce. It's the perfect vehicle to take the message to extremes, by juxtaposing the Moral Majority senator with the drag queen, and wtching their interactions.</p>

<p>You know, I think that every work of art, be it a poem, a short story, a painting or a play or musical, has its own point of view. Whether or not that is considered "propaganda" depends on the point of view of the person who is reading/viewing the work of art.</p>

<p>SS, my opinion differs from yours in that I don't see plays, like this one, as propaganda. Theater, like books, wrestles with issues. I can act in (IF I could act, LOL) a play or watch a play that differs from my own culture, experience, viewpoints, belief systems, morality, etc. and not be forced to change my views. I will simply be made AWARE of other views. As well, any actor or any audience member has the option whether to participate in or to watch a piece of art, so it is not really forced on anyone. </p>

<p>Theater can provide insights into other cultures, literature, periods of history, religions, and lifestyles. It can bring out many differences in the human condition. Theater tells stories about people. Theater can communicate. Theater can be a lense through which we see the world. It doesn't have to present just what we agree with but can provoke us to think and learn about different people, emotions, situations, etc. other than our own. Our minds are engaged as we learn. It is not the same as propaganda and being indoctrinated. </p>

<p>As far as those who act on the stage, it is a chance to imagine other characters and situations that differ from one's own. The actor takes on and tries out an idea or a life that they might not try out in any other way. They get to walk in someone else's shoes. </p>

<p>Theater can move an audience. It doesn't force a viewpoint. It moves others to think about viewpoints other than their own. It can stimulate discussion, which can be a positive thing. Works of drama provide a way to allow us to freely explore our thoughts, concerns, experiences, views, without one being "right". It explores the human experience. </p>

<p>Theater also gives a "voice" to certain groups or cultures that otherwise may not be "heard" in other forms of communication.</p>

<p>Theater doesn't force a viewpoint but allows us to reflect on viewpoints. Should we just read books and watch plays that align with our own viewpoints? I shudder to think of that. Censoring plays and books closes off our minds and reveals intolerance. Through theater, we can learn about so much and come to understand the variety of experiences, thoughts, and emotions in the world. Theater can make a difference, and it doesn't do that through propaganda. It engages us, but doesn't indoctrinate us.</p>

<p>SS...I recently saw the movie, Hairspray, which is also a theater piece. Racial tolerance was one of the themes depicted. What if I didn't believe in integration of the races? (this is totally a "what if" and not how I truly feel!) Should I then not watch this film or show? Should I only be exposed to pieces that align with my own points of view?</p>

<p>What if I watch a play that depicts Nazis. I am against the Nazi viewpoints and behaviors. Should I not watch?</p>

<p>What IF (though not true about myself) I was homophobic. Should I not watch a play like Laramie Project?</p>

<p>If we only watch plays that align with our own viewpoints, we are truly limiting ourselves.</p>

<p>I'd like to add that by seeing plays outside of our own experiences and viewpoints, we can be enriched.</p>

<p>SS.... you state...... "I'm no homophobe, but I sure wouldn't be thrilled if my daughter's MIL was a drag queen."</p>

<p>My hope is that if you were to meet this fictitious MIL of your d, that you would do so with a very open heart rather than with a small mind.</p>

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Whether or not that is considered "propaganda" depends on the point of view of the person who is reading/viewing the work of art.

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To a great extent, yes. But I have recognized plenty of propaganda vehicles even when they exactly match my own sensibilities. Just because I agree with their message doesn't change the fact that they are propaganda. Also the intent of the author should be considered. </p>

<p>Soosievt, I'm sorry, but if you haven't seen any plays that "force a viewpoint" or attempt to indoctrinate, then either you haven't seen too many or you are taking a very Pollyannish stance for whatever reason. If you don't think casting the straight dad as a rigid, anti-Semitic senator with a prostitute-frequenting partner wasn't "forcing a view," then we'll just agree to disagree. And Birdcage was very, very MILD propaganda. Lots of great humor & warmth. I did enjoy it a great deal. Most heavy propaganda is so dreadful because the writing & character developmant are lacking.</p>