<p>Mamalu, why do you think not wishing for a drag queen MIL for my D constitutes a small mind? I would not wish it in a million years. I am betting that you would not either, if you were honest. </p>
<p>That being said, you can't pick your relatives. So I'd have him pull up a chair at Thanksgiving.</p>
<p>SS....I am not saying that propaganda doesn't exist. I am saying that theater works such as La Cage, and many others, that do not espouse viewpoints you might agree with, are not propraganda. There are pieces that exist as propraganda, but I don't believe La Cage is that, nor many other works of art that DEPICT views that greatly differ from our own. Depicting them is not the same as forcing them. The latter is what I think of when it comes to propaganda, which is meant to indoctrinate. I would want my child to be exposed a a wealth of viewpoints. In being so exposed, it opens her mind to different points of view, and makes her aware, but doesn't necessarily PREACH. It can enrich and provoke thought and perhaps, even some understanding. It may even outrage us. But that is OK, in my view. I wouldn't want to be closed off from the opportunity to view even things or ideas that may enrage me. Again, it is also a choice whether to be in a show or to even watch one. </p>
<p>Also about the MIL drag queen in La Cage....I think the theme was to understand differences or lifestyles that you would not choose yourself, and to embrace others who hold a different perspective. It didn't mean that the other folks had to agree with, like, or condone the other lifestyle. They only should be aware and to embrace differences and to welcome other human beings. It is about tolerance, not about agreeing or condoning or believing.</p>
<p>SS, I don't think it's appropriate to call mamalu dishonest. In fact, I happen to agree with her. To "not wish it in a million years" is making a judgment about one aspect of an individual, an aspect which, in my opinion, is probably close to the bottom of the list of qualities that I'd wish for in a mother in law for one of my Ds. You not only said you wouldn't wish it in a million years, you said you wouldn't 'be thrilled'. My eldest D is getting married next year and, sadly, she won't have a MIL because her fiance's mother died when he was 15. I would love for her to have the experience of a loving MIL, as I have had. If one of my Ds was in the position of the girl in La Cage, I can honestly say that it would bother me not in the least. I have many gay friends, and have had since I was 12 years old. My Ds are the same and have been exposed to the gay friends of their 70's grandparents, their 50's parents, and their own age gay friends, which are numerous.</p>
<p>That hypothetical gay MIL may be a wonderful person, or she may not, but to "not wish it in a million years" simply because of who and what she is, is small-minded. I have no way of knowing if you are a homophobe, but statements like 'I'm no homophobe, but' tend to set off my alarm bells. I'm curious, do you have a child who will be choosing theatre as a career? Just wondering, because I've never seen you participate in the theatre forum before. If you do, this is an issue that your child, and tangentially you, will be faced with in his/her career.</p>
<p>StickerShock: I think you made an excellent point. Most propaganda is heavy handed and awful art. Its esthetic qualities defeat it. La Cage Aux Folles succeeds because it is not heavy handed. Personally, I don't find a message of tolerance for all propaganda. About the caricature of the straight parents, I don't object to this as a very straight woman because I think their rigid closed mindedness is being caricatured, not their straightness. Gay people can be closed minded too. D has a friend at school who is bi-sexual. She is being ostracized by the lesbian group on campus, not the straight women. So, I don't see a caricature of a political opportunist as a caricature of straight people. In fact, I think the mother is rather poignant in her simple desire to be loved. Certainly, the neediness of the boy's "mom" is also poked fun at, but lovingly. I think love pervades the entire enterprise, and the ultimate willingness of the conservative father to don drag is portrayed as emotionally opening up.</p>
<p>I am open to being corrected, but I don't think all Episcopal churches stand opposed to a gay life style. Some accept and embrace gay parishoners, at least that is my understanding.</p>
<p>Alwaysamom, I hardly want to get into a one upmanship contest --- "some of my best friends are gay, blah, blah, blah.." I have gay couples living on my block. One has an adopted child. I have not yet been tempted to egg their houses or grafitti their cars, believe it or not. Yes I have gay friends & far too many gay patients who I cared for as they suffered horrible deaths from AIDS & its many complications. </p>
<p>That being said, I think if you or mamalu would be thrilled with a drag queen -- not a non-flamboyant lesbian -- acting as your grandchildren's grandma, then I would be surprised. Flabergasted, actually. Be honest: Would you be happy with that scenario?</p>
<p>D is considering this career path. I recently jumped into reading the old threads & getting ideas about school choices. I've not seen many drag queens in theater. That's more of a Provincetown thing, I believe. Yes, she and I are well aware of the high concentration of gay men in the theater. Other than cutting into her dating opportunities, she could not care less.</p>
<p>Mythmom, the gay marriage issue is a very contentious one in the Episcopal Church at the moment. Some bishops and parishes, if that is the right word, are open to it. Others are firmly opposed. The Church may be on the verge of a skism (sp?) so it was a choice of play that was bound to be controversial.</p>
<p>Let's not forget Tracy's mom in Hairspray! :D</p>
<p>By the way, having taken my children to Provincetown countless times, the whole drag queen thing was part of their upbringing. We even took them to a drag show, where the actors portrayed well known singers, when younger, shudder! We also watched the parade in Ptown which is full of drag. You can't walk down the main street in Ptown and be immune to drag....we have a fond memory of D2 as a young girl who would refer to the drag queens hawking their shows on the main street each night as "Man-girls" :D But I digress. </p>
<p>I can't speak for AlwaysAMom but I read her inquiry about having a child going into theater as not only about working closely with many gay directors and actors, but also having to study, watch, or be in plays that do not espouse her own leanings or beliefs or perspectives. This is prevalent in college programs, let alone in professional theater. Obviously, one has a choice whether to participate in auditioning for certain shows. But overall, material will be dealt with that may go beyond one's viewpoints. An open mind can be beneficial.</p>
<p>By the way, my D is taking a course this semester in Political Theater. </p>
<p>As far as the drag queen mother in law...I don't know what it means to be happy about it but more has to do with accepting the person and getting to know her for who she is as a person, despite if her lifestyle doesn't mirror my own. Where do you draw the line? What if the person is not your religion? Your race? Etc. Acceptance and tolerance are not the same as having the same beliefs, condoning, etc.</p>
<p>SS, again, you miss what I've already stated quite clearly. If my grandchildren happened to have a grandmother who was drag queen, and that individual was a loving and generous (and tolerant!) person, I would have absolutely no problem with it. One aspect of an individual is not my criteria, nor that of my Ds, for whether that person is a good or worthwhile human being. As an example, just to contrast. One of my Ds had a longterm serious relationship with a young man whose mother, on first glance, was everything you'd want in a future MIL. She was a friendly, pleasant, woman; a teacher and guidance counsellor; a regular church-goer. Well, as they say, time will tell, and that woman caused more havoc than I care to remember in the lives of her son, my daughter and our entire family for over a year. Everything from kicking her son out of the house, to threatening my D and the rest of our family, showing up in our driveway in the middle of the night screaming at the top of her lungs on numerous occasions, days where she'd phone dozens of times, I could go on for pages. Clearly, this woman has many serious issues but my point is that if you'd met her for the first time at a school performance and introduced yourself, you would have been impressed by her. I learned a long time ago, and long before I became a psychologist, that the old saying "you can't judge a book by its cover" is very true when it comes to human beings.</p>
<p>You may be flabbergasted all you want by me, and, honestly, it doesn't surprise me, given your other comments in this discussion. The fact that you would make a distinction between a drag queen and a "non-flamboyant lesbian" are, like your other comments, quite telling. So, it would be okay to be gay, just not TOO gay? I guess your neighbors should be happy that you, thankfully, haven't egged their houses or graffiti'd their cars. What an unusual comment to make. It's not always blatant acts like that which are harmful.</p>
<p>Susan is correct in that my comment about your child being faced with many related issues if she chooses to pursue theatre in college and as a profession, is more than learning to be comfortable working with and for gay men. The issue isn't simply one of reduced dating opportunities. The productions that she'll be involved in both in college, and after, may very well contain material that will be objectionable to some. Good theatre makes people think, good theatre entertains, good theatre educates, and the best of theatre does all three.</p>
<p>StickerShock, count me among those who would have no problem with one of my kids' future in-laws being a so-called drag queen, or a gay woman or man. I honestly wouldn't care, as long as that individual was a nice person with whom I could get along and who cared about his or her own child. If that hypothetical individual was as lovely and funny and sweet and endearing as the character Nathan Lane portrayed in The Birdcage, all the better. I mean that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So, it would be okay to be gay, just not TOO gay?
[/quote]
That's how most gay couples would feel, alwaysamom. Drag queens are flamboyant & far, far outside the gay norm. Most mainstream gays are not thrilled with the drag queen lifestyle & resent being lumped in with them. I'm pretty certain that my gay neighbors would not wish a drag queen MIL for their daughter. Even transgendered people usually choose a more toned down approach to crossdressing. If you'd be happy about sharing "grandma" duties with a man in size 13 pumps, fishnet stockings, and an Adam's apple, then that's your right. I would not.</p>
<p>My children will be faced with countless decisions and circumstances throughout their lives that challenge their belief systems regardless of their chosen careers. They'll deal with it.</p>
<p>StickerShock, you said: <<that's how="" most="" gay="" couples="" would="" feel,="" alwaysamom.="" drag="" queens="" are="" flamboyant="" &="" far,="" far="" outside="" the="" norm.="" mainstream="" gays="" not="" thrilled="" with="" queen="" lifestyle="" resent="" being="" lumped="" in="" them.="">>
Well, that just goes to show that prejudice is pretty universal, doesn't it? Just because some gay people (I am not in a position to say how "most" gay people or couples would feel, so I say "some") have their own prejudices doesn't make those prejudices right, in my opinion.</that's></p>
<p>SS, Just it give up. You have been judged as being "closed minded." These non-judgers are always right. It's a lost cause.</p>
<p>I am in with the group that would not mind having a cross dressing mother-in-law for either of my children. The issue of "flamboyance" is not about cross-dressing. I might feel uncomfortable around many people who attract a lot of attention to themselves in the public arena, but that's my problem, not theirs. Hell, my mother doesn't like to go to movies with me because she says I laugh too loud. </p>
<p>My ex-husband's father (very Wasp-y) warned him not to marry me, because in his words, "Jews run to fat." (Sad to say, actually right in my case.) This was very hurtful, and I've always wished ex-H hadn't repeated it to me, and I've always wondered if it was part of the reason he decided he did not want to have children with me, though he was okay with staying married. I wasn't under those conditions. For the record, both my mother and my daughter are both very slender (as is my Jewish MIL who is cosmetically perfect but utterly narcissistic.)</p>
<p>SS: We understand you don't feel bigoted, and of course, there are things we all feel uncomfortable with. However, how would you feel if you heard that someone didn't want a conservative Christian for a MIL for their children? I wouldn't say this, but some of my friends would. And yes, that would be bigotry. </p>
<p>I would not mind if my children had a transgendered in-law either. People who have been marginalized are often sensitive and empathetic.</p>
<p>I wish my mother-in-law was a transvestite, I really do. Then at least someone in my family would understand my preoccupation with my daughter's involvement in musical theater. Ooops, that was not very PC of me.</p>
<p>Having gone through life exposed to issues of gay family members and friends, family members having serious relationships with persons of different faiths and ethnic backrounds (including those that could be viewed by many with alarm) and having to deal with the reactions of others, I have come to realize that all that really matters is whether a person is one with the virtues of honesty, integrity, compassion, caring, generosity and loyalty. Everything else, while perhaps presenting at times difficult issues in addressing day to day life, is extraneous and simply a challenge to confront and resolve. That includes recognizing and working through personal reactions which are laced with intolerance. </p>
<p>And anyone who thinks that banning the play in question is somehow analogous to banning Nazis from holding a rally in a synagogue is engaging in the most specious of logic. There is a vast difference between presenting a subject matter that challenges your beliefs in a manner that is non-threatening, even where the message may contradict one's beliefs and cause discomfort, and presenting a message designed and intended to promote hatred, bigotry and violent harm to another. One challenges you to think; the other quite literally challenges you to survive. One has a role in a society that cherishes free speech and thoughtful discourse; the other has no place in a civilized society that should celebrate and respect the diversity of life. What's ironic is that those who would defend the banning of plays, literature and other art, because it is "offensive" to their "values", rarely ever stop to consider whether their reactions have a similarity, that survives close scrutiny, to those who openly hate.</p>
<p>Well said, as usual MichaelNKat! Bravo. I agree that, as individuals, we need not only to recognize and work through our personal reactions of intolerance (because most all of us have them, if we are willing to be honest!), but we also need to challenge intolerance in others when we see it and we need to do that gently and with compassion and humility. As a very old and very dear (and now deceased) friend of mine said "Build bridges, not walls." This woman came of age in Nazi Germany and not only witnessed and survived a lot of horror, but ended up becoming a doctor so she could (as she put it) "Serve life." She taught me about bridge building one day when I was angrily recounting how I had taken a store clerk verbally to task after the clerk was saying some quite blatantly racist things around a customer who was a member of a racial minority group. I was very upset about it all, and my friend commented that it was wonderful that I was so passionate, but had I considered that snapping at the woman did little more than force the woman to retreat behind her own "wall," and if she was on one side of the wall and I was on the other, well, we would never have a meeting of the minds!! Wisdom, indeed.</p>
<p>I just want to reply to something NotMamaRose said, re: most gays not being happy with flambouyant drag queens ("Just because some gay people have their own prejudices doesn't make those prejudices right, in my opinion.")</p>
<p>There's a sophomore boy at my school who regularly cross-dresses. (I don't know the specifics of his situation, if he's MTF or just enjoys women's clothing, and I don't really care.) Last year, when he was a freshman, before he cross-dressed for the first time, there were eight or nine boys and four or five girls, including myself, who were out and- get this- /nobody cared/. One of my friends brought a same-sex date to his junior prom. It just didn't make a difference.</p>
<p>Then this kid showed up, and one day he wore a skirt, and suddenly being gay is a Big Deal. This kid was physically threatened a couple times, which wasn't a surprise; we were surprised when the hostility turned to us, the other gay kids. One of my best friends was called a fag, multiple times, once in front of a vice-principal (who didn't do anything to the offender). A female friend of mine was verbally sexually harrassed by people who had previously just left her alone.</p>
<p>So is it not "right" of me, of my friends to hate being lumped in with this kid as "homos" and "queers"? When people do things like cross-dress, the entire community has to deal with the backlash. I'm all for him being himself- if girls wear pants without protests, boys should be able to wear skirts- but I just wish he had been more subtle about it.</p>
<p>(I'm sorry if this is incoherent; I just got back from a horrible rehearsal and I'm tired.)</p>
<p>ChellyBelly42, I can well understand your upset, frustration and even anger about the events you describe. It is tough enough to deal with sexuality and related issues in high school under any circumstances let alone where you are part of a minority that often is subject to the prejudice and fear of others. So when the "equilibrium" is disrupted and what you thought was tolerance or acceptance is revealed as a thin veneer that had masked the ugliness of others, it is natural to resent those who are perceived as having caused the disruption of your zone of comfort, particularly when you feel that the "battle" has been thrust on you uninvited.</p>
<p>But I would submit to you that those feeling are misdirected. Who really engaged in the inappropriate conduct? Was it the cross dresser just trying to be himself or the student who called your friend a fag? Was it your friend who did nothing more than live her life true to her own feelings about herself or the administrator who stood by idly, in violation of his duties and responsibilities as an educator and an adult (let alone the law) as your friend was subject to abuse and verbal violence?</p>
<p>I know it's not easy to fight these kinds of battles when you are in the minority and may feel powerless, especially where, as here, those in authority condone by their own inaction the bigotry of others. I've dealt with these issues in my life, as a high school student confronting violence used by others to promote their bigotry in a community that often "looked away", as a college student who stood nose to nose on a picket line confronting those who would promote intolerance or as a lawyer utilizing the law as my own weapon against prejudice and discrimination. </p>
<p>At the risk of sounding preachy or lecturing, it's important, however, not to blame the real victims, even when they seem to go out of their way to attract reactions that spillover onto others. As trite and cliche-ish as this sounds - and contrary to the conventional "wisdom" of today - very often there really is no shade of grey; there are clearly defined "good guys" and clearly defined "bad guys". And those who promote prejudice, bigotry, hatred and violence, regardless of the reasons or perceived "provocation" (here, the cross dressing), fall within the latter and should be dealt with as such.</p>
<p>Beautifully said MNK: Thank you.</p>
<p>The original poster intended this to be a provocative thread when he/she proclaimed that people who did not want this play at their church based school as "closed minded." I think that it's been a healthy discussion and I appreciate that very much.
MNK is very wise and is an excellent writer. This is an issue that is emotional on many levels and it's the thoughtful wisdom of those like MNK and the courage of kids like ChellyBelly that gives one cause to hope that acceptance for all is attainable.
Acceptance is really what is hoped for, am I wrong? Tolerance is not the same. Tolerate says that I'll put up with you. Accept says that I will embrace you and I will love you.
That said, I still would not HOPE FOR a drag queen as my MIL and although I live in the Boston area, we did not visit P Town with our kids. I don't find drag queens amusing or entertaining. I had a very good friend once who was a cross dresser/sometimes drag queen. He was a very sad and confused person, but I loved him very much. He died of AIDs.</p>
<p>Everyone feels differently and that is to be expected and welcomed. We have vacationed in PTown countless times and happen to love it there. We do not go there because of drag queens. As you likely know, a lot of gay people either live in or vacation in PTown. It is one place where many of them feel open about themselves and so you will see many gay men and lesbians walking around as couples holding hands and so forth. This is often true in Northampton which I have visited since I have a child who applied to Smith. I'm glad my kids have been exposed to seeing a place where people are openly gay. Their awareness is raised of all sorts of people and lifestyles. In this particular case, I have a child whose life is in the theater and so for one thing, there are a lot of gay people with whom she has worked, studied, and befriended. So she has been able to fully embrace these folks, many whom are very close to her. As well, by being exposed to others who differ from herself, (not just gay people), it helps her to understand an array of the human experience and that can only help her as an actor who must portray different roles and stories. While this example happens just to be about gay people, I could substitute many other types of people who greatly differ from her beliefs and lifestyle and culture that I also would want to expose her to. Awareness can help with acceptance and tolerance. Opening the mind up can be beneficial and lead toward acceptance of those who are different than ourselves. By closing off exposure, it is harder to move toward acceptance and tolerance of differences.</p>
<p>Sarahsmom42: I like your distinction between acceptance and tolerance. I think you're spot on there.</p>
<p>I make a distinction between cross dressing and drag queen. To my mind a drag queen is a performer who dons drag and usually exaggerates feminine characteristics, either to impersonate a female performer for its own entertainment value. To not enjoy this, to my mind, is a perfectly valid decision. This is entertainment; you don't have to like it. I never liked Seinfeld. People thought I was crazy. Many people, gay and straight, do enjoy it. And the artist can be gay or straight (think of RuPaul, Milton Berle, Dustin Hoffman, Robin Williams et al, all straight "drag queens".</p>
<p>A cross-dresser is someone who dons the clothes of the opposite sex in his/her private life for many different reasons. Most having to do with identity issues. Yes, some people who are very different and/or maginalized by society will be confused/sad. Some Native American tribes had an accepted role for men who wanted to dress and live as "squaws", not "braves". Some of my favorite artists fell somewhere in this condition, Gertrude Stein, Willa Cather, Georges Sand, because society didn't allow full expression as women. Many cross dressing men feel the same way. They feel prohibited from expressing their sensitivity when dressed as men. Their role can be very confining.</p>
<p>With cross dressers I don't think we have the same moral permission to reject them. They are people coping with something difficult; often their empathy is expanded because of this. I would extend my friendship until some act caused me to withdraw it, just the same as I would feel toward any one else.</p>
<p>As for the MIL issue, this is obviously a bit of a red herring, and frankly I don't think about this much. But if it were to occur, I can guarantee I wouldn't fret about it or mind at all. I am, however, very concerned about the narcissism of my in-laws that has just about destroyed my H's psyche. They have many friends and most consider them "the loveliest people".</p>
<p>Provincetown is a wonderful place. I can't imagine avoiding some place because of who might be there, unless they had a gun, then I would. Just like my son could not understand all his friends who were shocked that he wanted to go to Dartmouth as an extremely liberal person. People would say one word, "frat" as if that should deter him. S gets along with all sorts of people. He is straight but very into music, Bach in particular. That pidgeon-holed him in many people's minds, but his best friend in HS is a "jock". He loved Dartmouth and didn't think such a wonderful school to be left to a claque of frat kids, and applied. They didn't want him (though Brown did -- go figure), but all's well that ends well, and he is happy where he is (Williams). My point is, that to his crowd a frat boy is what a drag queen is to others. Isn't this silly?</p>