Chance kid for Harvard, Yale - complicated by extreme extracurricular classical/jazz music

Chance Me / Match Me!
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Almost 4.2/4.4 GPA (but mostly A minuses, took almost all honors/AP classes, school gives an extra 0.5 on a 4.0 scale for classes taken at the honors or AP level). No class rank but probably top 5% of an excellent suburban public high school. ACT 36 (M34, rest 36). AP Bio 4, 770 Bio subject test, AP Psych 5. Also got A’s or A minus in AP English and AP Spanish, but took them for college extension with flagship State U credit, so didn’t take the AP exam. Currently taking BC Calc, Physics C, AP Euro, AP US History, a college level English lit class, and highest level jazz band, along with playing in both Juilliard precollege and Boston youth symphonies.

Very heavy load extracurricular music - plays in highest level of a top ten in the nation school jazz band all 4 years high school, while also participating all four years in at least one, and usually two of three leading youth symphonies/jazz programs, every weekend, in NYC and /or Boston. Won two international level instrumental competitions, was supposed to compete again summer 2020, but pandemic cancellations.

Community service: independent jazz combo has played in nursing homes since they were 12 yrs old, and intermittently throughout high school, even now in outdoors settings. When the school district banned wind instruments in school, independently conceived and initiated a twice a week virtual practice session for all band wind instruments for middle and elementary schoolers - recruited best of band colleagues to participate. The six of them are now running virtual practice support sessions for 6 different wind instruments, to try to keep the younger kids in our town playing throughout the pandemic, plans to pass this on to the next year’s top band students to run. I think kid ran track one season, and was awarded top level in a Spanish competition, also National Spanish honors society. Was invited, but didn’t have time to complete National Honors Society application.

Not an URM, not first generation to college. But kid does have what should be excellent letters from the conductor of the Harvard symphony, who wants him there, in whose youth orchestra kid has played for three years, and also from kid’s Juilliard precollege teacher (has always been awarded either full or virtually full scholarships from the NYC and Boston programs). Also will have excellent letters from Chem teacher, who was very impressed with how kid helped other students in the class, and AP English teacher, who liked him very much, found kid’s work “thought-provoking”. Essay will probably be about how kid had to move 2000 miles away to live with ne’er do well older brother, in order to protect mother, who was undergoing treatment for two different cancers. Essentially an “I had to grow up fast, I had to parent older sib, had to be totally self-motivated for school and music (not to mention everything else), saw how challenging it was to do it all alone, so I started up this support program for banned band instrumentalists when I got back.”

Applying early decision to Harvard (will submit a music recording supplement), regular to Yale (combined college and conservatory 5 year program), BU, and McGill (music prof there wants kid after having heard kid at a competition in Canada) early action to UConn (in-state), U Maryland. Music audition would very likely get kid into any of these places - kid was very qualified to have gone Conservatory route, but wants a full liberal arts education. Would major in instrumental music performance at all but Harvard, where would likely major in psych, and continue studying music privately outside the college.

I think that with all this, Harvard is at best a long shot, and Yale is impossible. I just don’t see how it will be possible to get across to an admission committee that kid always spent about 40 hours/week on music, outside of high school’s academic and music program, and so had mostly A minuses, rather than A’s, while taking the most challenging course load. I think kid will get in everywhere else.

Does kid have a chance for Harvard early action, and Yale regular decision?

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@parentologist, why does kid want to go to Harvard? Sounds like music is (intelligent) kid’s life. Why study psych in lieu of instrumental music. I’m just curious!

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Even nine months ago, kid was focused on Conservatory. But kid always had a very strong compassionate streak for the mental health difficulties of peers, tries to help them. As kid put it, “I know all these beautiful, intelligent, talented kids, and they think that they’re worthless!” Kid loved AP Bio, and when they gave them clinical scenarios finally in AP Psych, kid absolutely loved matching up clinical scenarios to diagnostic criteria. Plenty of musicians get an academic undergrad degree at a highly selective college, while keeping up their music during college, then go for a masters in music. And because kid is already hooked into the classical music scene in Boston, kid would probably be able to play in Boston Philharmonic Youth, and study with one of the Conservatory teachers, while attending Harvard. Why Harvard? Because it’s Harvard, and because kid has a hook there as the orchestral equivalent of a recruited athlete (not that I think it means that much, but this conductor does bring in 8-10 musicians that he recommends, every year). I’m seeking feedback from those with experience, on whether kid has a chance.

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“… I just don’t see how it will be possible to get across to an admission committee that kid always spent about 40 hours/week on music…”

They will definitely notice this. And likely immediately look for what besides music, (or music-related, or music as the vehicle) that he got involved with. It’s important, as they build a community, that they find kids with depth and breadth, a shown willingness to try other things, get out of their own comfort zones. (Or interest zones or particular drives.)

H has publicly said they look for artists, among their scholars. But reality often comes down to who, among a strong set of overachievers, has got that rounding. Not unilateral. Try to find what represents this in his other experiences. It’s what holistic is.

A-minus grades are not generally an issue. An A is an A.

Of course he has a shot. But you want to check your strategy, be sure it’s as informed about what they do look for (in the whole) as you can get. It’s not about spike, per se. Just think about that.

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I think that doing exceptionally well at a small number (or even one) extracurricular activity(ies) that the student cares about is fine. Yale of course is quite good for music, as is Harvard. I am pretty sure that Yo Yo Ma graduated from Harvard – I doubt that he did many ECs other than music before going there.

I would treat both as reaches, but I think that it is well worth applications to both.

Your references (or your child’s references) will know how much time was devoted to music, and how strong your (or your child’s) abilities are. This will come across.

The thing with ECs is to do what you want to do, and do it really, really well. This sounds like exactly what happened in this case.

Apply to both. Also apply to safeties.

By the way, McGill is also very good for music. The music library there is very impressive – it is worth seeing if you are interested in music and happen to be in Montreal. Of course visiting will be a bit tough right now with the border closed but I would expect it to open before September of 2021 (it better open by May because I intend to attend a graduation in Canada this spring).

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Yo Yo graduated 24 years ago, a completely different world.

CC loves the idea of the earnest kid selecting ECs based only on what he or she likes. But CC isn’t deciding whether you get a seat at that uber competitive college.

Better to cover your bases, eh? Or choose simpler colleges to get into.

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Kid will be attractive to any college. As long as he understands that Harvard and Yale are reaches for everyone, no matter how talented and hard-working-- his strategy sounds solid to me. If it were my kid (and it’s not) I’d be considering Tufts, JHU as well. I’m assuming U Conn is the rock solid safety-- and assuming finances are not an issue?

He sounds terrific.

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Kid looked very carefully at the instrumental teacher for kid’s instrument, the quality of the academics, and the ease with which one could actually take academic courses. Hence, no conservatories (no time for academics, except maybe Oberlin, which is not renowned for kid’s instrument, plus major concerns about atmosphere there, plus it’s in an isolated rural location). Honestly, we discussed ALL potential schools for the past 5 months or so, every single one that had an instrumental teacher for him and decent academics, and only could come up with the ones mentioned. Harvard, only because of the letter from its conductor. Yale, because of the conservatory. McGill, because of excellent music and excellent academics, plus instrumental teacher really wants kid - came up to me at a competition that kid won, and asked me to have kid apply. BU - great instrumental teacher, and academics have improved a lot since my day, when BU was not nearly as competitive. Plus kid would really like to be in Boston. U MD - great instrumental teacher, good academics at a flagship state U. UConn - in state safety, great instrumental teacher, good academics at good flagship state U. Could still commute to Boston Philharmonic Youth, if conductor wants him. I wasn’t going to even waste the money on a Yale application, until his only standardized test administration came back as a 36 on the ACT. Then I really couldn’t say it would just be thrown out money, but I still really doubt that he will get into either Yale or Harvard. I do think he will likely get into the rest. I think he considered Peabody at Hopkins, but decided he doesn’t want a conservatory because he’s afraid he’d have no time to take academic classes, plus the instrumental teacher is spread VERY thin, but I just texted kid to make sure he’d considered and eliminated this option. Tufts is not strong on kid’s instrument, although it is an option, and kid would be in Boston. I’ll ask kid.

Honestly, with the schedule that the kid has maintained throughout high school, I think he is an excellent candidate for conservatory/college programs, like Juilliard/Columbia or Harvard/NEC, but he says only God gets into those programs, plus he just doesn’t see the commute time between the schools as being feasible. I asked him to consider Rice, but he says the studio is ginormous, and no time for academics, even if they are on the same campus.

It’s such a tough decision. I wasn’t expecting this. Schools that were not on the table, it appears now are at least remotely possible. Thanks all for the feedback.

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I am going to go in the opposite direction and say I think he has a pretty good chance. He has good scores, pretty rigorous academics with high GPA and - and this is the reason I am thinking he has a good shot - “and because kid has a hook there as the orchestral equivalent of a recruited athlete (not that I think it means that much, but this conductor does bring in 8-10 musicians that he recommends, every year).” If he is one of the 8-10 top musicians that this conductor wants then it is really not the same as the regular population targeting Harvard. Your child is targeting a place that will effectively recruit them. Now, if they are one of a pool of 50 that this conductor is selecting from and your kid has the same instrument as a slew of others and they don’t need that instrument etc then maybe their chances go down. The only thing in your whole explanation that gave me pause was in answer to the Why Harvard? … because its Harvard… sorry that is not a good reason to go. Hopefully it was not a serious response and all the other reasons stack up to be a compelling case for him/ her.

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Well, the reason IS that it’s Harvard, plus kid’s other interest is psychiatry (hence psychology major and premed courses), and the conductor there is the best one kid has ever worked with - kid would be very happy to play for this conductor for the next four years. But no, it’s not as if kid wants a particular field that ONLY Harvard has, and for which Harvard is the leading institution in the world. Kid hasn’t gotten that far. Kid cannot say this in his common app essay, because kid is applying for music performance major nearly everywhere else. He’s very interested in neuroscience and psychology because of their implications for psychiatry and mental health. He can possibly bring this out in a supplemental essay for Harvard - after all, Harvard doesn’t offer an instrumental performance major for kid’s instrument, and Harvard has great research in both psychology and neuroscience. The rower isn’t going to major in rowing, the swimmer isn’t going to major in swimming. The excellent musician doesn’t have to major in instrumental performance. From what I understand, most Ivies are looking for kids who had very high achievement in something, plus overall excellent academic achievement, plus great standardized test scores, plus leadership in community service/charitable work/giving back work. He’s got all that. But the kid hasn’t done more in neuroscience or psychology than take and love AP Bio and AP Psych. It’s not as if he’s done research in neuroscience and won the Intel competition with it - I don’t think kid was the kind of teen who would have sought that out and done it. Kid’s passion was music (and football stats). Until recently, he was quite set on Conservatory. At this point, he wants great academics plus great music, and Boston can give him the great music, even if he’s not at New England Conservatory. Harvard could give him the great academics in the academic field which interests him, a fact that he’s just going to have to bring out in a supplemental essay. I’m hoping that an admissions committee would see that a person who is so driven to achievement in one field, can transfer that drive to another. The fact is, people who are utterly focused on becoming professional musicians don’t go to Harvard. They go to conservatories, and he has decided against that.

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" I’m hoping that an admissions committee would see that a person who is so driven to achievement in one field, can transfer that drive to another."

I think this notion is going to frustrate you- both with Harvard as well as with Yale.

Of course Adcoms can see that drive in one field translates to other fields. Very few HS kids are exposed to linguistics, urban planning, epidemiology, archaeology, etc. in HS and yet top colleges have kids who major in these things all the time. A kid loves history but gets to college and falls in love with something else. Neither Harvard nor Yale expect a kid to declare a major at age 17.

If your son doesn’t get in, it’s NOT because they weren’t able to understand his drive and achievement. And thinking that there’s a “reason” why he wasn’t admitted is going to cause you pain. Your son is exceptional and therefore, there has to be a reason.

The reason is that a 7% or whatever the heck the admissions rate is right now actually means a 93% rejection rate! It’s just math. The conductor of the Harvard Symphony may have a lot of pull with admissions this year- or maybe he overplayed his hand last year and more than half the kids he pushed for who got accepted to Harvard ended up choosing Stanford or Princeton or in fact- ended up choosing Julliard or Curtis. You don’t know. And you’ll never know.

So as fantastic as your son is- try to cultivate the attitude that he knows his strengths and his loves, and he’s going to go somewhere where he can become the adult he wants to become. And if that’s U Conn- he’ll take advantage of that. And if it’s Harvard- he’ll take advantage of that as well.

This process is so befuddling some times- why does a kid get into Princeton and not Yale, Columbia but not Hopkins, Dartmouth but not Brown… it’s hard to help your kid see that at the end of the day- it’s a really, really, really big and talented applicant pool and no college wants only soccer players and no sculptors, only violins and no swimmers, only poets but no chemists.

Encourage your son to do his best- something he’s good at doing, and then not take the results personally.

There was a kid in one of my kids HS class who got into Princeton but rejected from Brandeis… except he really, really, really wanted to go to Brandeis. The year before a really special and talented young woman got accepted to Harvard but her heart was set on UVA (not a Virginia resident). There are always weird and funky things that naviance can’t predict because it’s more than grades and scores. Imagine the guidance counselor trying to persuade a kid “just try Harvard for a year and if you hate it, you can try transferring to UVA?”

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Fortunately, my son is a really mature young man. He would be fine at any of the schools he’s applying to, including UConn. He knows that Harvard and Yale are long shots, knows that the chances at either of them are still very low. I think that it’s likely though that he’ll get into all the others - and any of them, he’ll do fine at. He’s just set on GOING next year. I tried really hard to persuade him to apply the summer after senior year, for entry in 2022, because of how hypercompetitive it will be this admissions cycle, what with so many kids having deferred, due to the pandemic. He flat out refuses - says he’s afraid that he could lose academic momentum, and I cannot blame him one bit.

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@parentologist Has your son considered Vanderbilt? They do offer full-tuition merit scholarships to 15% of their class with some allocated with regards to relative school population (although all of these scholarships are extremely, extremely competitive with a ~1% acceptance rate IIRC,) but more importantly, they have a strong financial aid program meeting full need w/o loans (Opportunity Vanderbilt,) and you’re able to double major between any of the four schools. Vanderbilt also LOVES strong stats students, although it’s not a guarantee as with any selective school BUT their 75th percentile ACT RD last-year was a 36. Also, the campus is absolutely gorgeous.

The Blair School of Music does have an audition process, but it can be recorded or over Zoom if unable to come to campus.

From Blair Admissions:

“The talented musicians we attract want conservatory-quality music training with excellent teachers, frequent performance opportunities, and great facilities. They want to participate in their school’s top ensembles, so we deliberately limit our admissions numbers. Because we are selective, our students study and perform with musicians who are equally dedicated. The student-to-faculty ratio of 4:1 provides numerous opportunities to get to know and to work closely with the world-class musicians on our faculty.” ----- https://blair.vanderbilt.edu/admissions/

Hope that helps! Good luck with admissions!

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This is a roulette wheel. If Harvard faculty supports his application, he should apply EA and do classes at NEC. If Harvard defers him, apply to Columbia/Juilliard, Hopkins/Peabody (44% acceptance rate), Yale, and why not investigate University of Rochester?

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Really appreciating the suggestions. Thank you. Just want to say that I am passing all this along to kid, and to each suggestion, he quickly responds with the specific reasons he did not want those options (incompatible teacher, stability of program, ease of access to academic classes at U, playing style of primary teacher). It’s clear that he really did research every possible program for himself, with the same obsessive thoroughness that he has applied in the past to football stats!

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There was a poster last admissions cycle who wrote about someone in the Harvard music department wanting their child. They did a private performance, and the kid was ultimately accepted (from my recollection).

So it appears that what you say about the conductor having pull is indeed true. If this is the case then your kid as a great chance.

Your kid sounds like he would do well anywhere. Good luck

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Huh? A private performance? Sending in a supplement of any type, for any application - that I’ve heard of. But a private performance? Who ever heard of such a thing, or having such access? “Dear Admission Committee Member: You are hereby invited to a private concert, given by my child, Prodigy Prodigyson. Please respond to Tigressmom@lethimin.com.” You must mean that he sent in a musical supplement. A private performance? Really?

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No I mean a performance in front of the Harvard music department. I don’t remember if it was private, or with a group. I’ll see if I can find the thread.

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Here is the thread. Kid was invited to attend a concert and meet the music director at Harvard. This is after a music supplement was sent in. The kid was accepted at Harvard plus several others:

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/2126543-music-director-invitation-to-attend-a-concert-for-an-applicant-and-family.html

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An invitation for private performance or to meet the music director and such is exceptional but does take place behind the scenes from time to time. An applicant’s request for private performance and to meet the music director can also be granted at the discretion of the music director upon reviewing the music supplement. In a personal case of my son, he was invited to a music camp in Europe held by a music faculty at a top college shortly after having submitted the application and the music supplement. An invitation of this sort can also take place. I’d take it as a good sign with those cases where the college initiates the invitation but not necessarily when it comes from the applicant.

The music director does have some influence with the admissions decision making, but the outcome depends on the level of the applicant’s talent and the rest of the application package, as well as the college’s needs. The needs can go both ways.