<p>Hi there. I'm a junior at UW Seattle, 3.82 cumulative GPA, with a little research experience (nothing independent, no publishing). I know I don't really have a good chance of getting into any really prestigious grad schools, especially with the limited research, but would like ideas on decent places to look at. I'm hoping my interests will be more defined after taking more upper level classes this year, but for now I'm planning on going into microbiology or immunology.</p>
<p>Another thing: I know research experience is important, but it has been hard for me to get accepted into any labs, even though my school is very research oriented. It's terribly competitive and I don't qualify for many because I am not eligible for work study. I have been careful to read through publications and ask specific questions pertaining to people's research during interviews, but it didn't seem to help me very much. After applying to about 20 different labs, I finally got into one, but I was told from the start that I would not be able to do any independent research. I can get a positive letter of rec from one of the postdocs there, but my role is really just maintenance and media making. What are your thoughts on the importance of good research work before applying to grad school?</p>
<p>FYI, I’m applying this year, so it’s a little bit of the blind leading the blind, but I’ll give my two cents.</p>
<p>Your GPA is excellent. Don’t worry about having no papers- I don’t have any, and my understanding is that a lot of people are in the same boat. If you can do well on the GRE, good schools are not automatically out of reach. </p>
<p>I think you’re stressing WAY too much. You didn’t do independent research as a sophomore? No worries- no one else did either. To a first approximation, no sophomores publish, and those that do are only added to multi author papers as a courtesy (And really, the same is mostly true of juniors and seniors). And what do you mean by “independent”? Since you’ve not had any upper level courses yet (understandable), you lack the background to be truly self sufficient in the lab. If your peers (or people here on CC) are saying they are making serious contributions to science as an undergrad, they’re blowing smoke. So relax.</p>
<p>As for labs: it sounds to me like you’re applying for <em>jobs</em>. Frankly, you may have more of the type of experience you want if you treat it more like volunteering. Many PIs might not take you on for pay, but would be glad to give you a small project if they didn’t have to pay you (money rules the world, you know). Also, there’s no rule that it has to be at your school. What other schools are in Seattle? I know the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center is there, maybe you could find something there. I don’t know what they do there with micro, but I’d bet as a cancer center they’re doing serious immuno. (And don’t discount other fields- plenty of people switch between undergrad and grad. I did pharmacology in ug, but am applying to genetics programs.) One final thought: you can do research in the summer. I went to a school where there was little research going on, so I did 3 summer programs. A great chance to see another school, network, learn, and you get paid… a good deal. </p>
<p>So don’t worry… you’re not behind. You’ll be fine.</p>
<p>“To a first approximation, no sophomores publish, and those that do are only added to multi author papers as a courtesy (And really, the same is mostly true of juniors and seniors). And what do you mean by “independent”? Since you’ve not had any upper level courses yet (understandable), you lack the background to be truly self sufficient in the lab. If your peers (or people here on CC) are saying they are making serious contributions to science as an undergrad, they’re blowing smoke.”</p>
<p>Pardon me if you were simply attempting to alleviate the OP’s worries, but that entire paragraph is not only conceited but offensive. You falsely assume that your peers and yourself represent the top tier of applicants. I published as a first author on a top tier journal of my field by my second year. Am I blowing smoke? I literally prepared 50 drafts of the paper and spent over 3 years since high school to publish, so no I do not think all sophomores are published as co-authors for courtesy.
Completing my third year, I have 4 first/main (not courtesy co author papers) author publications on peer review journals and 7 independent grants. And I know of several others, my age, who have published in more highly regarded journals than the ones I am on. Moreover, I am fairly certain based on conferences that there are more than 100 students in the States who boasts more in-depth research experience than mine. I have met and advised high school students with publications as well. So just stop and think before you make yourself the prize of the class. </p>
<p>High GPA and high test scores add up to a great med school application, not a great grad school app. So the OP should indeed attempt to gain at least a year of significant research experience before the application deadlines next fall.</p>
<p>Debasing others’ merits is beyond simple complacency, just remember that during interviews.</p>
<p>Research experience is critical - I wouldn’t go to grad school without it. It’s unfortunate that your PI won’t trust a student to do experiments. You should try to find another lab (of if you’re ballsy, talk to your PI about your concerns) - don’t worry about finding the perfect fit right now, just find a PI who will let you do some bench work and allow you to see how laboratory research really works (you’ll probably work with a post doc or grad student). I don’t know about UW’s process for picking undergrads for lab, but I think PIs just want to know that you’re interested in learning and you’re not going to flake out on them. To them, you’re cheap labor - you can even just get course credit to work in a lab. I got into a lab in undergrad after my advisor was kind enough to email some professors I was interested in; I don’t know if that’s possible for you (I think I was lucky!). Also, a letter of recommendation from a post doc is not ideal. Letters from PIs are the best, and professors are also acceptable.</p>
<p>You should really do summer research. I did the Summer Research Training Program at UCSF and it’s amazing how much I learned in 3 months. I highly recommend it. There’s also the Amgen Scholars Program (at UW and other schools) and there’s something at FHCRC. I’m sure there’s more - you can google it.</p>
<p>I would be a little concerned if by the time you apply for grad schools you’ve only done maintenance and solution-making. Grad schools want to know that you know what it’s like to do research - how to plan an experiment, how to troubleshoot the many problems you will encounter, etc. They’re investing in you and they need to know that you won’t show up to grad school, realize that research is not what you thought or is too frustrating or too much work, and then drop out of their program. However, you still have time to gain experience. You might even consider working in a lab for a year to two between undergrad and grad school - that’s what I’m doing and I’m very happy with my decision.</p>
<p>Oh, and as for “independent” research, yes, of course it is better. BUT, no, I don’t think everyone has it. I think it’s perfectly fine to work closely with a post doc or grad student. Ideally, you want to work with someone who explains everything and answers your questions. They may be telling you exactly what to do, but you need to understand everything you’re doing. If someone asks you what you worked on, you should be able to explain it. What is the hypothesis, what is your expected result? Why did you do each step of the experiment? If it didn’t work, how did you fix the problem? If you got a different result, how could you explain that?</p>
<p>Being published is impressive, and you should strive for it, but don’t be totally worried if you aren’t. There are plenty of applicants who are published, but if you aren’t it’s not a deal-breaker for getting accepted. Your impressive GPA is a good start - just do your best to boost the other parts of your app and see where you get in.</p>
<p>I guess OP’s worries is reasonable while “homarus” judgement on publication as an undergrad is justifiable. For “Labster”, I would think you’re a genius, indeed. I’m not blowing smoke between you guys. </p>
<p>It’s true that OP could get at least more than 1 chance from 20 application if OPs look for some volunteering opportunities. It doesn’t matter if you’re doing independent research. Gaining at least a glance at a whole day wet bench experience would alert you if this is really your calling. You’ll develop your troubleshooting skills along the way as well. The first 3-4 months experience will open up your idea when you next volunteer in other summer programs or research opportunities. You may try in different labs as diverse as researcher’s approaches, some with bioinformatics, huge data mining from deep sequencing, some with clinical approach, dealing with patients specimens, some purely investigating biochemical pathways. It’s good to have your first experience before you start applying to grad school.</p>
<p>My humble opinion, it would be very difficult to get publication as a first author as an undergrad. I make my assumption based on the following facts: wet bench result, primary paper (not review paper), decent data (not mere “oxidation kills the cells shown here by quantitation of cells” publication. For data mining, one can get multiple hypotheses just drilling through many genes on exel sheets, their expression ups and downs. If one can publish as a first author as an undergrad without failing his uGPA in biosciences field, I’d say those students are really smart and would constitute only a small population in current trend. </p>
<p>I won’t be surprised to know if “Labster” is now studying in top biosciences program straightaway from his undergrad. I salute you. :)</p>
<p>I honestly have not been picky about the labs I’ve applied to. I don’t mind volunteering or working for credit, it’s just that the majority of the positions being offered are “work-study preferred” or “only for students who are eligible for work-study.” I’ve had friends look over my applications, cover letter, and resume, and I make sure to educate myself a little about people’s research before I contact them. </p>
<p>Now I rather regret accepting the position at the lab I’m at right now. It’s at a corporation, so it’s pretty fast paced and there’s a LOT of media to make, meaning no time for anything on my own. I have been paying attention and asking questions about their research methods, but there’s no chance of me doing any of my own research there. I’ve been thinking about applying for other labs, but I don’t want other places to see that I’ve only been at this lab for 2 months and think I’m a flake.</p>
<p>Phagocytosis, I found your post especially helpful. I did look at the UCSF Research Training program the other day, as well as the Amgen and Fred Hutch programs. I’m just afraid that they all sound very selective, especially Amgen. If I’ve had such a hard time getting into labs here, I’ll probably have an even harder time getting into these summer programs. I am also concerned about letters of recommendation if I apply. Classes are huge here even in my 3rd year so it’s hard to get to know your professors. I’m making more of an effort to go to office hours and actively participate in discussions, but it’s hard to make yourself known among 300 other students. I think I will be able to get letters, it’s just that they might not be that strong. Any advice about the whole application process?</p>
<p>I don’t want to sound bitter or make excuses for myself. I should have put more effort into getting good lab experiences earlier, and I know I could have done a better job at getting to know my professors. Just doing my best at damage control I guess. =)</p>
<p>UW is highly competitive for undergrad research experience.
Without work-study, you will need to approach faculty and ask to be a volunteer intern. It is critical that when you apply to each lab, that you state precisely why you’re interested in that lab. For example, I receive numerous emails from undergraduates at my institution that make vague statements about wanting to participate in our “interesting and important” research. </p>
<p>The authors of these emails did not spend any time looking up my websites or research articles from my lab. Therefore, I do not spend any time in responding to them. I hit delete on these types of emails.</p>
<p>By contrast, students who are persistent in contacting me and indicate specific reasons for wishing to intern in my lab, I do respond to and do interview. I encourage you to pursue this course at UW.</p>
<p>To sadilikeresearch
“If you don’t mind me asking, what field are you in?”
If that question was directed at me, then I am afraid I cannot disclose any specific information on public forums, specially this thread since I sound obnoxious as well.</p>
<p>To theholme
I am not a genius, merely fortunate to identify PIs that were willing to develop me unlike most other PIs who view undergrads as simple laborers. In the four years, I have only led 4 studies to completion while several others failed.
I do agree with you on that it is difficult to maintain GPA with publications. I graduated with higher than average gpa of admitted students at top 3 programs, but I could have well attained a 4.0 but I chose to make research my central goal during my stay in college. </p>
<p>To OP (pluripotent)
UW Seattle is a superb university, definitely highly regarded among those in research. ParAlum’s advice is spot on. Before contacting professors, I went one step further than what ParAlum suggested and composed a one page research proposal for each professor (so mass emailing in this scenario is not suggested as you would spend months preparing these proposals then). This not only shows that you have read their previous publications but that you are on the same page with them in regards to where they want to take their research. I recognize that this seems like an excessive amount of work, but it can be made easier by simply looking at what specific grants they were awarded recently by NSF or NIH. Their recent grant proposals should display their near future research goals. Combine that with reading papers published by other groups in that field, you can garner some interviews (or at least get replies with feedback on your proposals).This approach can be risky since it may be perceived as impertinent by some, so be sure to acknowledge your lack of experience in these emails as well.
Nowadays ability to collaborate with other is absolutely critical, so be sure to mention this as your strength during thsoe interviews.
Your window to generate data for conferences or publications is awfully narrow (approximately 1 yr, assuming you apply to grad schools next Fall). Thus, I recommend that you do not join immuno labs and instead choose microbio (your other listed interest) as microbio gives you a chance to gain some quick data before the applications are due.</p>
<p>I would still apply if I was you. They don’t expect everyone to have research experience. They like to give students opportunities. Also, I was told that the SRTP is basically UCSF’s major recruiting effort for their Ph.D. programs, so they’re looking for people to want to ultimately get a Ph.D. (or M.D./Ph.D). I think I wrote in my essay that because my university didn’t have an immunology dept, I wanted to experience working in an immunology lab. My best advice for writing the essay: explain why you want a Ph.D. and how their program will give you an opportunity that you wouldn’t otherwise have. For you, it’s going to be a little tricky because UW has immunology and microbio and you can’t complain that you’re having trouble getting into labs at UW. You want to come off as positive and excited about science.</p>