<p>Johnwesley, I've so appreciated your posts as we've been going through this process. The short (if you can call 10 short) list of colleges changed many times before we settled on the final one, and we are very glad that Wesleyan made the cut. My son's heart sank when he got waitlisted/rejected from Vassar, Oberlin and Haverford all at once, so has been ecstatic (not to mention in shock) since the Wesleyan acceptance came through. As of today, he's narrowed it down to Bard and Wesleyan. Any thoughts?</p>
<p>He should go to Bard with me! Ha.</p>
<p>Okay, MLevine, that settles it then!</p>
<p>He doesn't necessarily want to major in music, but wants to continue studying piano and playing chamber music. At Bard, he's concerned about having to compete with Conservatory students for teachers and ensembles. At Wesleyan, lessons and coachings are contracted with local professionals and not really through the Music Dept. Vassar and Haverford are much more pianist-friendly, oh well...</p>
<p>I've admired President Botstein from afar and over the years; he was once on the shortlist to succeed a Wesleyan president many, many years ago. He's certainly done a good job branding Bard. I've always liked its woodsy Hudson River surroundings. FWIW, Wesleyan's newest choice for president, Michael S. Roth, reminds me of Botstein a little bit.</p>
<p>Hey Johnwesley, I'm counting on you to convince us that Wesleyan's the best for our son! Yes, Botstein is interesting and is making exciting things happen at Bard. We know Bard a lot better than we know Wesleyan. Time to learn more!</p>
<p>When I visited Bard, the admissions officer said there were only 5 piano students in the Conservatory program -- they list several teachers, so there should in theory be plenty of room in the studios (he also said, when I asked about the large number of teachers per student, "the teachers have lives" -- so that may mean that some of the teachers don't actually come to Bard that often). Melvin Chen might be able to give your son a lesson and tell you about the piano possibilities at Bard.</p>
<p>Thanks, Forte2x. The 5 piano students at Bard are world-class and from all over the globe. The conservatory is aiming for the level of Juilliard/Curtis students. My son played for Melvin Chen last year and we had a great visit with him. The teachers who teach the non-conservatory students live in NYC and come to Bard once a week for lessons. They don't have much presence on campus. This would probably be okay for a non-music major, but it's not ideal. Wesleyan has a similar arrangement with NYC teachers, but at Wesleyan there isn't a separate group of students who get to work with the tenure-track professors.</p>
<p>Well, here's my Wesleyan <em>spiel</em>. I think that someone looking for a "Bard experience" could probably find it at Wesleyan. As well as an Amherst experience, a Swarthmore experience and even a Brown University experience, depending on how you define all of those. I truly think Wesleyan is that diverse and that flexible. It helps that it is a bigger school than some LACs; there can be a St. Patricks Day party thrown by DKE the same night as a staging of the V<em>g</em>n* Monologues. It also helps that it is smaller than some Ivy League campuses; people don't necesarily see themselves as belonging to a different branch of the school; when someone wins a Watson grant, or a Sundance screening, the whole school walks a little taller. Same whenever we beat Williams on the athletic field: everyone hears about it the next day, whether you consider yourself a jock or not.</p>
<p>I admit it's a pretentious little college; but, there are those who love it.</p>
<p>It does sound as if there are all kinds of kids at Wesleyan. I suspect that my son is a bit intimidated by the social sophistication and confidence of the students, though it sounds, from all I've read, as if people are genuinely friendly and welcoming. Hopefully he'll get a sense of this at WesFest.</p>
<p>Skie: you can tell your son that for every socially sophisticated and confident student at Wes, there is another (or sometimes the same one) who is convinced that they are hopelessly akward (whether that is true or not is a different story...) :D</p>
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As of today, he's narrowed it down to Bard and Wesleyan. Any thoughts?
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<p>Not even close. Wesleyan by a mile. UNC-Chapel Hill would probably be my second choice from your list of four.</p>
<p>Bard was broke when Bostein took over 30 years ago. Wesleyan is one of the more financially robust, well-endowed colleges or unversities in the county with a per student endowment of over $200,000. Bard's is less than half of that. Of more concern (to me) is that every time Botstein raises a little money, he puts it into some new far flung graduate program or institute instead of building up the basics. Frankly, 30 years is too long to have the same president; the college becomes a personality driven place rather than building foundations that transcend any one professor. I just don't see a patient, disciplined commitment to the nuts and bolts of undergrad education. It raises a red flag to me when I see a college that makes its annual financial reports so hard (impossible) to find on their websites.</p>
<p>The lack of financial underpinnings shows up in several areas. Bard, for all intents and purposes, has nearly non-existent science programs and science majors. Completely different than a well-endowed full-service liberal arts college like Wesleyan.</p>
<p>The financial position also forces colleges to maximize student revenues. This usually means no diversity, which is certainly the case at Bard. Bard is 82% white US citizens. That's a lack of diversity that puts in the same range as Washington & Lee. Completely different campus culture than a school like Wesleyan.</p>
<p>I'm no expert on Wesleyan, but I know enough to see all the hallmarks of a solid, well-run, financially stable liberal arts college with good programs across the board and excellent students.</p>
<p>Although very different than Bard, Brandeis also is impacted by a relative lack of financial resources -- mostly the result of being a relatively brand-new university.</p>
<p>I would choose Wesleyan over UNC-CH because I think LACs provide better undergrad educations. However, UNC-CH is a vibrant place with a lot to offer. If I were thinking large state university, UNC would be right at the top of my list.</p>
<p>Interesteddad, thanks for your detailed comments. I will share them with H who can't get over Bard's incredible new concert hall and is a fan of Botstein the musician.</p>
<p>UNC is no longer in the running, as great a school as it is. S really wants a small LAC.</p>
<p>He is still trying to let go of his first choice school, Vassar, where he was waitlisted. What should he know about Wesleyan vis-a-vis Vassar that we haven't already told him?</p>
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I will share them with H who can't get over Bard's incredible new concert hall
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<p>Spending money on the Gehrey designed concert hall is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about with Botstein. He always seems to have a new scheme to raise money for, rather than invest in the endowment. It's kind of like installing a jazuzzi and big screen TV in a mobile home. He can get away with it because he single-handedly has run the place for 30 years.</p>
<p>Vassar and Wesleyan are extremely similar in terms of fundamentals -- endowment, enrollment, prestige, etc. Both are also known to attract fairly liberal kids. Perhaps due to its woman's college history, Vassar seems to tilt a bit to the humanities and away from the sciences -- I don't think Wesleyan has a perceptible tilt, although JohnWesley would know better than I.</p>
<p>I would have no hesitation at all about Vassar or Wesleyan. They are both blue-chip schools that spend between $55,000 and $60,000 per year per student in operating expenses (not including financial aid) and have solid financial underpinnings. I think that almost any student who felt comfortable at one would enjoy the other.</p>
<p>Interesteddad, many thanks. Your posts have not only given my H lots to think about re: Bard, but have made him finally understand why I have become so addicted to CC these last few months! </p>
<p>We've just booked S's trip to Wesleyan for WesFest. It's a direct flight into Hartford and then a short drive to Middletown. Piece o' cake.</p>
<p>A trip to Bard is so much more complicated! From LaGuardia, he'd have to take a cab into Manhattan, then a train to Rhinecliff and a cab to the campus. And then he'd be on his own to find some place to sleep, as Bard doesn't offer student hosting for overnights.</p>
<p>Fingers crossed that he falls in love with Wesleyan.</p>
<p>So, a friend of mine's girlfriend visited this weekend from Bard. She said something that I thought you might find interesting/useful:</p>
<p>"Take WestCo [the steryotypically most hippy/hippster/artsy/pot filled dorm at Wes] and multiply it by 10. That's my school."</p>
<p>From talking to her, I get the feeling that Bard is far less diverse than Wes, not just in terms of race (though it is much less diverse in that respect), but in terms of type of person. Bard actually is, I think, what many people THINK Wes is: a place where everyone is artsy and smokes pot with the security guards (or so this girl says...). Of course, she loves it there, so that isn't necissarily a bad thing, but certianly something to think about.</p>
<p>Thanks, WesKid. I suspect there's a Bard-like contigent at quite a few LAC's. Hopefully S will decide that he'd be better off with a more diverse, not to mention larger, population of students.</p>
<p>The negatives on Bard have been sprouting up all over CC in the last few weeks (see Bard vs. U of Chicago). Does anyone have anything terrific to say about the place?</p>
<p>Bard: D's childhood friend is going there. She loves it.
We met one of her friends, who also loves it.
We visited there once, library is one of those old mansions overlooking the Hudson. You'd have to be an 1890s Vanderbilt or something to get to live in that environment.</p>
<p>Would not be my choice, and my 2 kids chose not to apply. But ditto for Wesleyan, for different reasons. Anyway my info is that there are indeed people who it fits, it has what they want & they in fact love it.</p>
<p>Whether that's you or yours, can't say.</p>
<p>Bard spends alot of money on things that are seemingly unimportant, yes. However, they do have a strong undergrad program already, and you seem to be overlooking the $1M science building they just finished building. I saw it when I visited, it's beautiful.</p>
<p>It isn't all artsy-pot smokers. I'm a "jock", I guess, and I'm almost 100% sure I'll attend. I just like the intellectual environment.</p>
<p>Also one must decide whether the ways schools may be "better" on paper, a.k.a. different, really are important to you.</p>
<p>Diversity may be quite important. Or it can be bad, or irrelevant. Eg, smaller proportion of likely friends with more interests in common. If your school is a one-trick pony, but that trick is in fact your trick, you might well decide that you like that better. Based on personal preference.</p>
<p>Just talking generally here, not these schools particularly.</p>
<p>Where I went to school, there were tons of people doing all kinds of different academic programs, who had like nothing in common with each other. As for ethnic aspects, all the groups seemed to keep to themselves, eat at their own tables, etc. Personally, I think all in all I would have preferred a less diverse pool of fellow students, a greater percentage of which I had a lot more in common with. But that's me, being the terrible person that I am.</p>
<p>There are some LACs that have big endowments and seem to spend a lot of money on funding competitive sports teams. My kids hate sports. Moreover, they don't really tend to like the kids they've encountered to date that DO like sports a great deal. Frankly, they'd prefer not to attend a school that had a large chunk of such kids.(note: that's just their opinions; they did not apply to either of these two schools, so don't worry).</p>
<p>Let's say a school absolutely sucks in art. But I myself can't draw to save my life, never would take a studio art class in a million years. In other words, I too suck in art. Then this extra capability/diversity may be of no value to me personally whatsoever. If on the other hand the school is actually great at the things I really might want to do, that's a lot more important. To me, anyway.</p>
<p>So points are: i) it's not just the money they have. but whether the priorities the institution has adopted in spending that money is in accord with your priorities; And ii) diversity in and of itself may be desireable to you, maybe not.</p>
<p>"I admit it's a pretentious little college;"
"....the social sophistication and confidence of the students,.."</p>
<p>This is along the same lines of what my daughter picked up on, during her visit, that induced her ultimately not to apply. Rightly or wrongly.</p>
<p>It's possible your kid might feel like Bard fits better. Or Wesleyan fits better. It all depends.</p>
<p>Based on my daughter's experience at an LAC I think that prospective students should pay atttention to the number of courses actually offered at the upper levels in particular areas of interest. As your interests become more defined and specific the breadth of department offerings in the areas you care about can become important.</p>