chances: begin the shredfest

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
21

<p>Ben is exactly right,
Great academics are a necessary but insufficient criteria for admission. Can the essays be ghostwritten? Absolutely they can, but I actually believe that that doesn't invalidate the process. </p>

<p>There are two different kinds of ghostwriting:
1) Someone who rephrases the applicant's content to make it read better. So they polish the applicant's tortured description of their love of Microlight aircraft, for example, to make it sound better.<br>
2) Someone who hires a ghostwriter to make up content from scratch.</p>

<p>Both are wrong, both are intellectually dishonest, and if anyone is found doing the equivalent of either of them while on the MIT campus then that person is likely to be asked to leave the school. All of that is true, but from an admissions perspective, it matters a bit less.</p>

<p>The second one is actually more easy to spot. Suppose we have a strong, fictitious essay. Suppose, for example, that an applicant indicates on the essay that their life was turned around when they rescued some infants from a burning building, and they have always been haunted by the one they couldn't save (cue violin music). First I would expect that this might show up at interview. There, it is likely to be discussed, in detail, with follow up questions. It is possible that an applicant is both intellectually dishonest and a great actor, but as an EC, I can tell you that there certainly are regular cases where I can indicate to the admissions office that certain interests are not particularly sincere. The pure fiction essays are caught, most of the time.</p>

<p>The ones where the essay has been polished by a third party are trickier to spot. And this is a an area with a more shaded sense of right and wrong. There is clearly a difference between writing it yourself and hiring someone else to do it, but there is a continuum of collaboration. That is, if it is wrong to hire someone, is it also wrong to show it to one's parents (who might make their livings writing) and asking them for editorial help? Certainly this is a harder issue.</p>

<p>But here I am not sure that it matters. The essay has two functions.<br>
1) To introduce the student to the committee so that they know who the student is and what the student is like
2) To provide a writing sample.</p>

<p>I would argue that of the two, it skews some 95% to 5% in favour of the first function. And it should. And as long as the content is the student's then the external editorial help is largely irrelevant.</p>

<p>Don't misunderstand me, I am not condoning or advocating ghostwriting. In an institution that expects and demands rigourous intellectual honesty, then this behaviour is antithetical to MIT. However, I am not necessarily convinced that it invalidates the essays from an admissions perspective.</p>

<p>-Mikalye</p>

22

<p>I agree with everything you said except:</p>

<p>
[quote]
But here I am not sure that it matters. The essay has two functions.
1) To introduce the student to the committee so that they know who the student is and what the student is like
2) To provide a writing sample.</p>

<p>I would argue that of the two, it skews some 95% to 5% in favour of the first function. And it should. And as long as the content is the student's then the external editorial help is largely irrelevant.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The essay is a genre in which style is almost everything. In some sense, the style is the substance. An applicant can recount precisely the same story in two essays and come off as arrogant and pathetic in one and brilliant and lighthearted in the other. The tone is cruicial, and I found that it was uniformly the most reliable way to predict which way the admissions committee would look at an essay. An editor with a deft touch can completely reverse the tone of a piece and, consequently, its reception. So ghostwriting -- even the non-inventive variety -- can quite seriously affect the evaluation of the essay, in my humble opinion.</p>

<p>A slightly different point: often, especially at MIT, the goal of having the essay (I glean) is to see how vibrant is the applicant's passion for science/engineering and how much personality and curiosity the applicant has as a scientist/engineer. I'm very skeptical of the ability of people who don't do the thing in question (math, science, engineering, whatever) to evaluate these things with any degree of reliability from an essay. An intellectually vacuous essay written with panache will often be much more impressive to an admissions committee than a deep, intellectually serious effort that is more subdued and academic. Of course, the clever student will just write to the audience. But this is one aspect of undergraduate admissions at most top schools that I've always found disappointing.</p>

23

<p>we'll be right back with crossfire...</p>

24

<p>
[quote]
the goal of having the essay (I glean) is to see how vibrant is the applicant's passion for science/engineering and how much personality and curiosity the applicant has as a scientist/engineer

[/quote]
Really? I could offer you a number of wonderful young people who were accepted and didn't write about anything even closely resembling science/engineering (although their interests in those subjects would have been clear through the rest of their application).</p>

25

<p>Right. I guess I'm old school about these things. You usually don't do a tap dance when applying for a job at a law firm or a newspaper, so it's not so clear to me why one's ability to write (or purchase) a compelling personal story should have much bearing on admission to a top technical university. And since I'm skeptical of this practice when the writing is "about science", I'm even more skeptical when it's not.</p>

<p>Of course, I understand the usual reasons that are given in defense of the essay. Character is key, and essays can show it. Sometimes you can reveal more of your personality by writing about a non-technical subject than by writing about a technical one. And so forth.</p>

<p>My problem is that, beyond squishy intuitions, there's no evidence whatsoever that skill at creative writing on non-technical subjects has any bearing on anything that anybody cares about. The ability to write a pleasant autobiographical piece seems to be an important skill for an aspiring small-town beauty queen, but not so much for the future scientists of America. </p>

<p>As I mentioned before, there's the argument that from such an essay we can figure out important things about an applicant's character and likelihood of thriving in a collaborative environment, etc. But I'm struck by the breathtaking arrogance of the presupposition that we, the people who temporarily sit on admissions committees here and there, can really divine such a thing from a page and a bit of prose. It reminds me of phrenology.</p>

<p>Now, of course sometimes essays convey important facts or important context. I'm not totally against them. But I think their role as windows into an applicant's soul is often vastly overblown, and perhaps a more rigorous look is needed to see what (if anything) they tell us.</p>

26

<p>Mikalye,</p>

<p>The goal of admissions is to find fit, right?</p>

<p>I don't see how a person who engages in intellectually dishonest practices to get into MIT can possibly be a good fit with MIT.</p>

<p>Personal qualities are important? Personal qualities are with you at all times; you can't just be excused of them when it comes time to write the essay.</p>

<p>I contend that if someone is intellectually dishonest in writing the essay, and the essay is unable to detect this aspect of the applicant's character, then the essay has (to an extent) failed in its stated purpose of probing personal qualities.</p>

<p>I think it does matter where on the "continuum" of acceptability the applicant's essay lies. There may be no way to definitely measure the essay's position on this continuum, but at the very least the importance of this position should be acknowledged.</p>

27

<p>pakistan zindabaad.</p>

28

<p>Ben elaborated on my statement and made it more accurate. I don't have much to add beyond what he has already stated.</p>

29

<p>so even if for MIT, your main essay was not about your passion for math and science, you don't stand as good a chance as someone who did write about their interests? Say no, say no.... LOL</p>

30

<p>Actually, no. An essay about a salamander or a Shakespeare play can help you just as much as an essay about the Cauchy integral formula. So fret not.</p>

31

<p>rbannerjee, as my post above indicated, I know several current MIT students (including my son), and some who were admitted but chose not to attend, whose essays were not about their "passion for math and science". They did write about activities or experiences that were meaningful to them, and it was probably clear how "passionate" they were about those activities, but their essays were not math- or science-related. Those interests were clear elsewhere, they didn't have to write about them also. </p>

<p>Ben Golub is not an MIT Admissions Officer, nor am I. The closest thing we have on this thread is Mikalye who is an EC (interviewer) and therefore part of the larger "MIT Admissions Team", and some current and recent-past students. Their opinions are likely more relevant to MIT admissions than BenG's or mine. </p>

<p>Other institutions may choose to give different weight to essays and may, in fact, care whether your main essays focus on math and science. And many, perhaps most, of the essays the MIT Admissions Team reads might, in fact, be math/science focused: I'm not on that Team so I can't say. But it is not factual to state or imply that your chances for admission at MIT change for the worse if "your main essay is not about your passion for math and science".</p>

32

<p>Mootmom is right about everything she says above. I have nothing to do with MIT policy, and in some cases I'm very critical of it, so my opinions are likely to be (at least in some cases) the exact reverse of what MIT admissions thinks. Presumably all that was clear above. </p>

<p>MIT seems to like personal essays not much related to academics -- in many cases, I think they change your chances for the better. As elaborated above, I think there's a lot of silliness in this. But that's my personal opinion, and taking it as admissions advice would be a mistake.</p>

33

<p>well, as an MIT student, here's my theory on admissions:</p>

<p>1) I think that, even more than scores, grades are huge. You should be able to pull mostly A's in HS with a couple B's sprinkled in. You should also do this with a decent courseload. This way, they know you can work, and at MIT, there is lots of work to be done.</p>

<p>2) I think that scores are a range thing. It seems like once you get in a certain range, they don't matter. What's the difference between a 1500 (old) and 1600 anyways? Isn't it only a couple questions? Look at newsweek or another publication to find the 25th/75th percentile range, if you're in there, you are DEFINITELY ok.</p>

<p>3) As much as I think it is overused, I have to admit passion is really important. If you don't care about what you do, take pride in your work, and do things because you are internally driven, then MIT will probably be too much for you. Also, remember there a lot of ways to demonstrate passion besides math and science related activities. Music, theatre, athletics, etc.</p>

<p>I also think that, by looking at these type of activities, MIT really gives you a chance to be a kid. I feel that too many HS kids dont enjoy it. I see people on here that have extensive lab experience, numerous internships, communtity college classes, etc. I'm sure that some of these people really like those sorts of things, but I also get the impression that some people are doing it just for college. So do whatever you really want to, you have the rest of your life to be an adult.</p>

<p>4) Diversity. MIT does not want diversity just for the heck of it. Diversity allows for diverse ideas and makes MIT a very interesting place. The other day I was catching up with my friend from kuwait on what he's been up to and then a few minutes later was talking to someone else about the finer points of deer hunting (we're both from pennsylvania). Besides being interesting, people from different backgrounds come in with different ways of thinking, and that can lead to new ideas. So yes, MIT wants a diverse class.</p>

<p>And that's my two cents</p>

34

<p>Grades are non standard. Essays can be ghostwritten. Recommendations and evaluations can be embellished. EC's are often overstated. If we take this cynical view of the application I guess we are left with the good old SAT's as the only objective measure. I for one hope that's not where some of you think we should be heading.</p>

35

<p>And people can cheat on SAT's. </p>

<p>No, my argument is that even if we assume everything is honest, it's still not at all clear that ability to write a charming essay correlates with anything important.</p>

36

<p>Ben,</p>

<p>I am not trying to be difficult, but your response begs the question; what does correlate well, besides the SAT's, if the other application items are subjective and writing ability is irrelevant?</p>

37

<p>You're not being difficult at all. It's a good and serious question. Grades and SAT's obviously correlate with academic promise. Teacher recommendations would work. Independent accomplishments in math and science. Things like that.</p>

<p>Incidentally, I don't recall saying subjective measures were bad. Some subjective measures can be quite meaningful and correlate well with important things (even though the measurement can be idiosyncratic). The evaluation of the essay is subjective plus there's no evidence that these subjective measurements are useful.</p>

<p>If it were my call today, I'd keep the essay. But we'd do well to remember that the essay was introduced at top schools mainly to have an excuse for rejecting Jews, and I don't think much serious study has been devoted to what they do now that this goal is no longer relevant.</p>

38

<p>Obviously there are two ways to go about the admissions process: telling the admissions office honestly what is in your brain (via not studying for the SAT, honestly getting good grades in difficult courses, choosing teachers who will tell the truth about you in their recommendations, joining clubs which genuinely interest you, and writing an essay that reflects your real experience) or lying. Some forms of lying are seen as worse than others -- that is, it's considered less bad to study for the SAT than it is to have someone else write your essay.</p>

<p>But! so it is in many other things, including graduate school admissions and sex. There aren't too many ways to unambiguously signal fitness (admissions fitness, reproductive fitness) that other people haven't found a way to cut corners to. C'est la vie.</p>

39

<p>Psychic Probe.</p>

40

<p>I'm not referring to the ability to write analytical pieces (and if you want to submit a research report or something to MIT, I doubt they would mind). If you are a scientist, you still have to be able to convince the rest of the world that your research is worth doing. Look at "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman." </p>

<p>IMO the essay is the coverpiece to your whole application. It is the only point on the entire application when you can sit down and say, "damnit, this is what I want MIT admissions to hear from me directly." Good essays generally refer to things that are referred to elsewhere. For example I wrote about dressing up as a pirate. This was reiterated in both my interview and my teacher recommendation letters. </p>

<p>Finally, I have to argue that character is far more important than anything. Surface integrals are easily learned, but courage and risk taking aren't traits that can be easily picked up. (MIT can teach you the surface integrals)</p>