<p>yeah, he is just one of my friends making weird comments. lol, disregard him.</p>
<p>"Mahajan looks like a rich indian girl"
wtf?</p>
<p>The stereotypical Indian applicant has astronomical stats and still worries they're not good enough.</p>
<p>haha, thanks for pointing that out cookiemom :)</p>
<p>All kidding aside, you pose an interesting question. What could keep an applicant with very high stats and good ECs from getting admitted to a school like Princeton? We know that those with very high stats do get into top schools at higher rates then those who may be more average in the applicant pool. When we hear about stellar applicants getting rejected it seems like the process is somewhat random.</p>
<p>However, the more I learn about the college admission process (Im an alumni interviewer at a top 25 school), the less random it appears. It also seems that the kids at the local high schools who apply to top schools tend to either get into all or most of them, or get rejected at all or most of them. This suggests that adcoms at different schools are using similar criteria to judge applicants.</p>
<p>For a student such as you with great stats and good ECs, the question is how is your character and personality reflected in your essays, interview, and recommendations? Are you the kind of student who is going to share your knowledge and talents and enrich the college community, or will you cloister yourself in your room and worry about your GPA?</p>
<p>Hm...great topic, one I was always afraid to raise. In my teacher recommendations, I honestly cannot say how they will go. I am a curious student and I love learning, but at the same time, I work myself stiff. I'm not sure if teachers understand, but I will stay awake till 4 AM reading ahead in economics, and it will come across as my having "just studied" even though i love the subject.</p>
<p>cookiemom, which school do you interview for? im sure you have a strong grasp on all of this. how can a school judge character? i mean, im sure my teachers did not write anything horrendous about me, but i am not sure how they can differentiate among 20000 stunning letters of recommendation! Also, in my essay, I tried to get away from academics. I told them about stuff I like to do, but a lot of it was just about my thoughts. I picked something, wrote down my thoughts concerning it, and just thought that was the best way to get my personality across.</p>
<p>I am sure, on paper, I come out as just a number. Thats why, in my essays, I tried to write like I talk and take a normal tone and mix it with a decent format. I dont think my essays are amazing enough to make the adcoms cry or anything...i just hope they get a human personality across instead of just a statistic.</p>
<p>I interviewed for many years for an Ivy. While interviews don't count as much as other factors (they are usually listed as in the second or third group of "important factors"), I noted that good rankings from me didn't mean a person would get in, but BAD ones were 100% directly related. In other words, anyone I gave a 1,2, or 3 to out of a maximum of 9 did NOT get in. Another poster - I've forgotten who - who interviews for an Ivy had the same experience.</p>
<p>I can tell you that a huge number of people I interviewed who got bad interview scores had a laundry list of ECs a mile long. They listed every single thing they had ever done since 8th grade. When I spoke to them, it seemed that depsite their interest in learning, the real reason they did this was to have it "look good on their college application." I know it is hard to believe, but I was told a variation of that dozens of times - and all from Indians! Why? Is a parental thing? I have no idea and I am NOT stereotyping, just giving my own "anecdotal" facts (if you consider 20 years experience "anecdotal"). </p>
<p>To the OP - if I were you, I would do as my kids did (all in top ten schools) and leave off about 2/3 of that stuff at least, consolidate others, and concentrate on two or three interests you are truly passionate about. Otherwise you could come across looking like a college-resume-padding machine.</p>
<p>Character is seen in many ways. My kids community service, for example, was something they started when they were very young and which consistently grew throughout their lives. They left off the list all the groups that just did stuff like collect food for Thanksgiving baskets, and left on only things that made a difference and were meaningful It is worrisome that the only service you listed stated that you had an article written about you. That smacks not of character but of opportunism.</p>
<p>Several of the kids I interviewed were youth leaders with a four year record of commitment to helping others; others were Eagle Scouts; others had outside letters from organizations they worked for, etc. Unless there is something you are not telling us, you show us no evidence that you, as cookiemom said, will do or have done a thing to enrich the community.</p>
<p>You will probably get in most places you apply on stats alone, however.</p>
<p>Mahajan said, </p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Rich Indian kid from Texan suburbs. SAT I: 1600 (taken May, 2004) <<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>The fact that you are "rich" and "Indian (I assume you have parents from South Asia, India)" will work against you because you are placed in the category of the Asian American applicants, the most overrpresented racial group, even at Princeton at about 13%. Asian Americans, who include Indian or South Asian Americans in this demographic group, are 4% of the American population. Indians from India have the highest demographics indicators, even among the other subgroups of Asian Americans (Chinese, Korean, etc..) in terms family income and parental educational levels. Also, Indian applicants comprise of one of the most stellar academic groups of applicants to the elite colleges. Since admissions is a zero-sum game with race based "diversity", stellar Asian American applicants are rejected at a higher rate than stellar white applicants. The proof of the pudding is in the relative rates af acceptance for each racial and ethnic groups under the racial "diversity" goals/defacto quota of Princeton. Asian American applicants are accepted at 60% to 70% of the white acceptance rates despite having the same stats and meeting the other stellar holistic criteria for admissions in some of the the Ivies and elite colleges. Studies at Brown and Stanford have proven this. The rates of acceptance in the Ivies are the lowest for Asian Americans and the highest for URMs (blacks, latinos) despite the Asian Americans, as an applicant group, being more stellar in every sense of the word. This would include stellar stats as well as stellar ECs, community service, special talents, national and international awards, recommendations, motivations, and the overcoming of obstacles from being a racial minority.</p>
<p>Mahajan, you are stellar in every sense of the word according to your record, but I would not be suprised that you were rejected at Princeton or Harvard or Yale, because of "diversity" issues and the fact that Asian Americans are overrpresented as a racial group at Princeton, which is generally 10 to 13% Asian American each year. This number represents a defacto quota, but not a numerical quota. Hiowever, the two are really the same.</p>
<p>So, in answer to your question, "What are my chances?".</p>
<p>We don't know, but we do know this. Relatively speaking, your chances are the lowest of all the racial and ethnic groups, including whites, simply because you are an Asian American. In this respect, it does not matter how stellar you are, because you are subjected to the goal of racial diversity and a defacto quota from Princeton.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for your reply! I really like candid answers and while your reply was a bit hard to swallow, I understand where you are coming from. About my community service: I have honestly never been a major community worker. I do household chores and help relatives, but the rest of my time has been spent in doing schoolwork and extracurriculars and just plain hanging out. The service organization having to do with the nursing homes was something that I started on the side, and have been doing on weekends. </p>
<p>While my parents, from elementary school to junior high, have been pushing me to do well, in high school, all of that changed. They just left me to cope on my own, which is good in a way. I think part of the idea of Indianness is that service comes in the family, so I have done many family-oriented chores and stuff...my parents, however, didn't raise me as a child to get into college. They just wanted me to be self-confident, solid, smart, and an all around nice guy. Unfortunately, I don't think community service ever came to their minds (neither in a "my kids gotta get into Harvard way" nor "we got to help the community" type of way).</p>
<p>Anyways, my stats, while solid, do NOT guarantee me a place. It is hard explaining this to others who don't know that much about the process. While I understand the interview will be important in kicking me out, but not getting me in, what other factors play a key role? What are standards for essays?</p>
<p>Thanks. I find you folks really experienced and knowledgeable (sp?).</p>
<p>Cookiemom,</p>
<p>I find your post fascinating. Are you suggesting that in the reviewing process, creating a class with depth and dimension is actually considered at all schools, even the academically elite?</p>
<p>My younger S, a HS freshman, has a tradition of outperforming on every level the predictions of any standardized testing vehicle he has taken. I don't think he is a child who 'doesn't test well'. I think he tests pretty much as he should, and then by virtue of sheer will and desire, he goes on to achieve at a much higher rate than his test scores would suppose. He has done this since second grade. He is also an incredibly delightful and charismatic human being (not that you would believe such a thing, coming from his mother). In the back of my mind, as my older one has never met a standardized test that hasn't liked him (he scored an 800 on his first and only try at the SAT Verbal) I have never truly been able to enjoy his success because inwardly I cringe a bit, thinking about what awaits my younger one...</p>
<p>When the annual standardized test scores show up each year for YS, I glance at them and stash them away in a file -- he has no idea where he stands on the grid, so to speak, but PSAT's are only a year away and I would love to be able to tell him he still has a chance if he can't ultimately make the 1500 range...</p>
<p>Would you say it can happen?</p>
<p>Dizzymom</p>
<p>mahajan I know that the application just seems like pieces of data, but all of those pieces add up to a surprisingly comprehensive picture of the applicant. You have to remember that these applications are read by adcoms that are trained and experienced in reading applications. That means that they are able to see a lot more in them than you would think is being revealed. For instance your recommendations will be evaluated in terms of not only what they say, but what they dont say. They will be looking for anything that hints that you may be arrogant or have difficulty with relationships with your peers. From what you told us you are a very bright and hardworking student. The fact that you did not take offense at my first post means you have a sense of humor and you can laugh at yourself, which is a very positive trait. It doesnt matter what you wrote your essays about, your choice of topics and how you treat them will reveal your personality. The goal of the essay is not to make the adcoms cry but to get them to know you better, which it sounds like you did. </p>
<p>I am also somewhat familiar with the Indian culture. Dont underestimate family service. That is a wonderful tradition that influences how you will treat others in your college community.</p>
<p>By the way, my S has also applied to Princeton ED and he also omitted 10 questions by mistake the first time he took the writing. He was thrilled when I told him about you doing the same thing See, Ma, it wasnt just me. There must have been something wrong with the wording on the test!</p>
<p>Dizzymom Elite schools absolutely look to ad texture to their student bodies. Thats the reason why kids with perfect stats arent guaranteed admission. Every adcom Ive heard speak says things like, We will often by pass the #1 kid in the class and take #6 because he or she looks more interesting.</p>
<p>For Brown U.'s chances of admission based on stats alone, i.e., SAT I Verbal, SAT I Math scores, and class rank when taken alone, irrespective of all other factors used for admission, click on:</p>
<p>As an example, for the group of applicants who score 750 to 800 SAT I Verbal, the chance of admission to Brown is 26%. The chances of admission to Brown for a Verbal score in increments of 750, 760, 770, 780, 790, and 800 are obviously increasing from the baseline 750, but the chances for admission are not listed. Obviously, for a score of 800, on either the Verbal or Math, when considered separately, the chance of admission is more than 26%. </p>
<p>There are thousands of scorers of 800 on either the Math or the Verbal separately, out of 1.5 million SAT I test takers this year, but there are only about 950 scorers of 1600 on the SAT I composite score this year. There are only about 700 scorers of 1600, just two years ago. Therefore, for the 1600 scorer, the chance of admission is much higher than 26%. By extrapolation, using the Brown admissions data and Harvard's admission fact that it admits 50% of the applicants who score 1600 on the SAT I, the 1600 scorer has a much better than 50% chance of admission to Brown. Brown's mean SAT I score is 1390 and Harvard's mean is 1490.</p>
<p>We know that at Harvard, the chance of admission for the group who scored 1600 (800 Math and 800 Verbal together or composite score, on the SAT I) is about 50%, irrespective of all the other criteria used for admissions. That is to say, if you are an applicant in the group who scored 1600, you had a 50% chance of admission to Harvard. A couple of years ago, there were only about 700 scores of 1600 in the nation out 1.2 million SAT I test takers. About 400 out of the 700 SAT I 1600 scorers applied to Harvard, and Harvard admitted over 200 of them or 50%. Therefore, by just considering the SAT I score ALONE, the 1600 scorer had a 50% of admission to Harvard, which is 5 times the admission rate for the whole applicant group, which had an average SAT I score of over 1430. You can obviously see that, the applicant who scored 1600 had a TREMENDOUS ADVANTAGE in admissions to Harvard over the average applicant to Harvard, who scored 1430. Harvard's SAT I average is approaching 1500. The top 25 percentile of Harvard's freshman class (400 out of 1600) scored from 1590 to 1600 last year. This year, out of 1.5 million SAT I test takers, only about 950 in the nation scored 1600. Assuming that over 500 of these 1600 SAT I scorers applied to Harvard this year, and that over 50% of them are admitted, there are probably about 300 SAT I scorers of 1600 in Harvard's incoming class of 1600 freshman.</p>
<p>Therefore, for the perfect 1600 SAT I scorer, irrespective of all other criteria used in admissions to Harvard, the chance of admission is 50%. That's darn good when compared to the 10% chance for the entire applicant group.</p>
<p>By extrapolation, the chance for admission to Princeton for a 1600 SAT I score is higher than 50%, based on Princeton's average 1470 SAT I score vs. Harvard's average of 1500 this year.</p>
<p>Don't trivialize a perfect 1600 SAT I. It is a distinction and very few achieve this score, no matter how much test prep one takes. Obviously, not everyone can acheive a 1600, no matter what they do to prepare. Only .0006 (900 divided by 1.5 million) of all test takers achieve this score. Translated, only 6 one-hundreths of 1% achieve a score of 1600. This would make the applicant STANDOUT and this score is quite a distinction and that's why Harvard admits 50% of its applicants with a 1600 score. Princeton even admits more than 50% of its applicants with perfect scores and Brown even admits a higher % than Harvard and Princeton of its applicants with 1600 scores..</p>
<p>To Mahajan,</p>
<p>In answer to your question, "What are my chances for Princeton ED?"</p>
<p>Just based on your record that you posted, including your ECs, academic record and a perfect SAT I score of 1600 and 3 perfect SAT II scores of 800 giving a total of 4000, for a combined perfect score on the SAT I and SAT II, in addittion to the fact that you are are applying ED to Princeton, YOU HAVE A MUCH BETTER THAN AN EVEN CHANCE of admission to Princeton. The total ED applicant group to Princetion last year had a one in three chance (33%) of admission. You certainly more than exceed the standards met by the acceptances for ED admission for Princeton last year.</p>
<p>Again, the one factor that may hinder or decrease your chances is the fact that you are an Asian American. Asian Americans are admitted at a much lower rate than any other group despite meeting the standards and holistic criteria for admissions. Asian Americans are required to meet a higher level of achievement (higher than for whites, blacks, latinos, etc.) in order to be admitted. The bar is raised for Asian Americans because of double and triple standards used for different groups. Asian Americans are subjected to defacto quotas limiting Asians for racial diversity, because they are overrepresented at Princeton at around 12% for their 4% of the American population. </p>
<p>Therefore, I would not be surprised if you were rejected for this very reason.</p>
<p>who is rattle one?</p>
<p>Hey cookiemom and voronwe,
Your messages were really enlightening.I too am Indian and I agree with with what you say.I am regretting now that I sent a 3 page list of achievements to Harvard.Could you please see my post in the What are my chances forum and evaluate my chances?</p>
<p>Cookiemom,</p>
<p>It is an amazing soup you stir. </p>
<p>I know a young man (not my S, of course), recent valedictorian of a large high school, who on the merits of grades ands scores alone was admitted to one of our country's most elite universities. His raw intellect is not a matter of dispute, and he deserves an excellent education. He is, however, simultaneously reclusive, and utterly lacking in personal motivation or initiative. I don't dislike the young man; I'm simply stating what many have observed.</p>
<p>I would never want to deny this young man his spot, yet when I see the #6's, brimming with determination and personality, it's good to know you take a look at them as well. There's no telling whether the #1 above is perhaps just a late bloomer and will catch up with his brainpower along the way and become the pride of the institution where he studies, of course. It must be very, very dicey to be reading the apps and deciding who stays and who goes. After a while, does it become obvious to you, or is it always a bit of a heartbreak?</p>
<p>Dizzymom</p>
<p>Even the elite schools accept a small number of students based on academics alone. They are not your run-of-the-mill valedictorians, but rather extraordinarily brilliant individuals. Ive seen quotes that at Harvard this about 150 students a year, or less than 1% of their applicant pool. The other 99% of applicants will be evaluated on other factors as well.</p>
<p>I don't review applications. I'm just an alumni interviewer and don't get to see the whole application. However, I do get a sense of how good of a student someone is from their interview. I ask them how they have challenged themselves in high school, and kids will often tell me their SAT scores and class rank. It is impossible to get a good sense of who will get in without seeing the entire application. Im usually able to tell if someone will be rejected, because their credentials dont seem to be competitive. However, it is very difficult to distinguish between those that are accepted and those that are wait listed. These are all students who are academically competitive and have good ECs. This is where potential contribution to the college community comes into play. It just depends on what the school is looking for to diversify its class.</p>
<p>Yes, some of the decisions are heart breaking, especially when you meet a student who is eager, mature, and highly impressive. Every interviewer will tell you that there are students that they give their highest endorsement to and they dont get in. However, we dont know how they may compare to the rest of the applicant pool.</p>
<p>akashbansal I am not familiar with how schools evaluate international applicants. That said, your book and your performances at academic competitions are impressive and should help you. Good Luck and stop worrying!!!</p>
<p>Dizzymom, how could someone get in solely for statistics? He had to have something besides, didn't he? Maybe Intel STS or something! But yeah, I agree, I am afraid people will take me to be a sheltered hobbit or something because I don't have any "passions" that are atypical...I enjoy playing the violin, but then again, so do thousands of other applicants!</p>
<p>Akashbansal, your stats are great, especially your SAT scores. I'm glad to see you have written a book and that you have some passion that you are really attached to.</p>
<p>Martin Valdez- I have a friend named Martin Valdez! But he doesn't live in Ohio. In any case, yes, I don't have a clue who rattle1 is, though he must have posted something on my forum since his name was listed under the posters.</p>
<p>Cookiemom- thanks for all the encouragement, and more importantly, all the advice! Its so weird that more than one person could have made the mistake of skipping the last ten questions. I realized after the test that I was ten questions short, and was kicking myself since then! This time when I retook it, I made sure I found the ten questions....whats funny is that had I not been through the experience, I probably would have skipped the last ten questions again. They are hidden away very neatly.</p>
<p>About my help around the house--lol I did not mention this in the Princeton application...but I don't know if adcoms can get indications of this other places. Its not something I do for college, so I kinda feel weird about putting it in my future apps (at this point, I am gearing up for rejection, so I have all else ready). Also, about texture, I feel that I am lacking in what I can give back to the school. If a student is semi-accomplished, but not in any way that he could give back to the school, where does he sit in the application pile?</p>
<p>Another random question: One of my top choices is University of Texas in Austin (my Aggie friends would kill me for this!) What have you heard about their Business Honors Program and Plan II Program? Is it well known? I can only judge on a local basis, but what opinions do you hold of UT?</p>
<p>mahajan - You have a lot going for you, you just need to relax! Your alumni interview will give you a chance to talk about your family and your home life. This is your chance to provide more details about anything in your application, or to talk about things that are not covered in your application. My son is having his Princeton interview next week. I'll let you know what they ask. The school I interview for gives a list of questions as a guide and we're supposted to try to cover some basic areas. </p>
<p>I don't know much about U of T, bu I'm sure there is someone else on this board that does.</p>
<p>Mahajan,</p>
<p>You stated that you do not know rattle1. Well, I am quite familar with the admissions process in the Ivies. I am an observer of this process for several decades. I personaly know the admissions director of an Ivy and several members of the adcom. I also know many alumni interviewers, all of whom were my former schoolmates. My wife and I, collectively hold 4 degrees from 2 Ivy schools. Many other members of our family (neices, nephews and cousins, and grandparents) are graduates of the Ivies and the elite colleges such as MIT and Stanford. In addition to being a life-long friend of two of the Trustees of an Ivy, since they were my former schoolmates, I follow the admission process at these schools from an insider's perspective. I have knowledge of the stats of admitted applicants compared to the rejected applicants, disaagregated by racial and etnic groups, from reliable sources. These stats are never released to the public.</p>
<p>Again, the answer to your question, "What are my chances for Princeton ED?" The probability or "chance" of your admission to Princeton is greater than 50%. Your odds for acceptance is MUCH BETTER than the rest of the ED applicant pool. The only factor that may lower these odds is that you are Asian American, subjected to diversity goals or defacto racial quotas of Princeton, limiting the Asian American percentage to about 12%, simply because they are overrepresented for their 4% of the population. The percentage of Asian American applicants in the total ED applicant pool is MORE THAN 12%. That's why Asian Americans are admitted at lower rates than any other racial and ethnic group, despite being more stellar in every sense than the average admitted applicants. Asian American are required to meet a higher standard of achievement than whites, blacks and latinos, in order to be admitted. This may be the overriding factor, if you were to be rejected, because there are too many stellar Asian American applicants, at a much higher proportion than the other applicant groups. Asian Americans, on average are a more stellar applicant group than the other applicant groups. Asian American applicants are accepted at a much lower rate than the white applicants despite having the same stellar records, characteristics, moral character, interview ratings, work ethic, community service, and special talents. That is to say, the rejected Asian American applicant has even more stellar characteristics than the admitted whites, because of BIASES AND STEREOTYPICAL IMAGES of the adcoms against the Asian American applicants. Studies at Brown and Stanford have proven this.</p>
<p>Just considering the SAT I score ALONE, the 1600 scorer had a 50% of admission to Harvard, which is 5 times the admission rate for the whole applicant group at 10%, which had an average SAT I score of 1430. You can obviously see that, the applicant who scored 1600 had a TREMENDOUS ADVANTAGE in admissions to Harvard over the average applicant to Harvard, who scored 1430. Harvard's SAT I average is approaching 1500. The top 25 percentile of Harvard's freshman class (400 out of 1600) scored from 1590 to 1600 last year. This year, out of 1.5 million SAT I test takers, only about 950 in the nation scored 1600. Assuming that over 500 of these 1600 SAT I scorers applied to Harvard this year, and that over 50% of them are admitted, there are probably about 300 SAT I scorers of 1600 in Harvard's incoming class of 1600 freshman. Your chances are Princeton are even higher at Princeton and Brown, because they are a little less selective than Harvard in the pecking order of selectivity.</p>
<p>Your may also ask, "Why does Harvard (or Princeton) admit over 50% of 1600 SAT I scorers?" Well, because 1600 scorers, on the average as a group, also possess the other characteristics that Harvard is looking for, such as higher GPAs with more difficult courses, special talents, character, creativity, hard work ethic, etc. than the the 1400 scorers, on the average. That is to say, the 1600 scorers meet and exceed the holistic standards for admission more than the 1400 scorers, at a much higher rate. The 1600 scorer is simply MORE STELLAR in every sense, both statistically and holistically, with more talent, creativity and even communication and personal skills, on the average. That is why the 1600 score is admitted at over a 50% rate at Harvard and Princeton and even at higher rates at the lesser competitive Ivies and elite colleges. Some elite colleges admit 1600 scorers at an 80% to over a 90% rate and even at a 100% rate.</p>
<p>As far as the the importance of the interview in the admissions process, it is less important than you may think. Alumni interviews serve to complement the application, not as the determining factor for admission. In many cases, it simply serves as just another piece of info. In many instances, the applicant did not have an interview, because the interview is OPTIONAL. Also, the alumni interviewer, is not privy to the applicant's file or the adcoms ratings of the applicant and is not involved in the direct decisions of the adcom.</p>
<p>Stanford's adcom does not even recommend an alumni interview and places little importance with it. The vast majority of Stanford's applicants don't have an interview. Some students may be interviewed by members of the adcoms themselves or with special on-campus interviews, and the relative importance of the adcom interview varies with the different schools and even the desirability of the applicant, i.e. an athlete, a URM, a legacy or a rich and famous VIP applicant. These special categories of applicants, may warrant special considerations and preferential treatment, and that is why they are granted special interviews.</p>
<p>bumppppppppppppp</p>