<p>Yes, I agree that it does take courage. I've told the mom of the whistle blower that I admire her son's honesty and sense of fairness. There was never a doubt in his mind that this was dishonest, she said - so no courage needed. A good parent. (and a lawyer! :) )
Yes, momOfour, this was for the classroom tests, all year long. Some parents say they know it happened last year as well. I, too, think that the test center is of dubious reputation. Not only because of this incident, (they not only put the kids in a bad situation, but they used our contact list without authorization to get our addresses!) but because they play up the fears of the parents that these prep courses are necessary to do well in these AP classes, which is clearly not the case. It's so much hype, and capitalizing on the frenzy of college admissions. If they existed to give help to kids who are struggling, that would be different. The majority of our class who go to these prep courses are from very competive families who want their kids to have every advantage. Most of the participating families are from other countries, and may think that this is how the game is played in the U.S. These are "top students."<br>
I do think this is a good ethical lesson for the kids, and parents. As I said, there are differing views about whether it's ethical or not, but the discussion, and clarification by the school, is very good for the students to see.</p>
<p>Something that I have a real problem with is that none of the PARENTS said anything, when some of them surely knew what was going on. Although I believe it is also the kid's responsibility to speak up, how can we expect the student to take action when the parent does nothing. I think parents should be held to a higher standard than that.</p>
<p>Yes, jenskate. It's almost impossible for a child to take a stand which is against his self interest when his parent is looking the other way, or even encouraging it. The thing is, I would bet that most of the parents whose kids are involved do NOT think this is an ethical breach. They think it's ok, because it's out there, and anyone (with the money and know-how) can also go to this center. Look at the responses from this board. Many here think it's ok, too, as did my lunch partner the other day.</p>
<p>If any parents knew and did not speak up, that would be highly unethical, I agree. But I don't agree that the parents necessarily knew what was going on. I don't see my HS sons' tests, and I can't recall asking to see one lately... and there would be no need for me to look over what they were doing at a test center. I can easily imagine that the parents were completely in the dark about the duplicate test question, unless one of their kids was uneasy about it and told them what was going on.</p>
<p>If one of my sons were in this situation, I would hope he would feel so uncomfortable inside that he would have no choice but to speak with me, or someone else, about it. Congrats to the whistle-blower who had similar good ethical sense and conscience.</p>
<p>A good parent. (and a lawyer! :) )</p>
<p>Hey, hey, hey now, ASAP! I've backed up your position on this one -- no lawyer cracks!</p>
<p>Seems to me the whole college frenzy thing simple 'feeds' this kind of behavior. It's my understanding that AP testing was recently revamped because east coast kids were calling west coast kids with the questions, etc for the tests given on a certain day. Always hearing stories of kids cheating going on through the use of cameras in cell phones...IMing of answers, etc... Guess the honest kids/parents simply have to have the intrinsic motivation to take the high road, but it must be tough when is seems to be so common. </p>
<p>On the other hand, College Board by it's very existence, also feeds the frenzy like there's no tomorrow....</p>
<p>As much as our school discusses their honor code ( a boy in our grade was dismissed last quarter for a different honor code violation) it's hard to imagine that none of the approx. 8 kids felt uncomfortable. I hope you're right, mootmom, that the parents had no idea. Otherwise, it's kind of scary.</p>
<p>iderochi - I meant "lawyer" in the most positive way! ;) Really - that may be why the boy HAS such a clear understanding of right and wrong. I'm sure they discuss such things around the dinner table.</p>
<p>I agree that the students should have alerted the teacher once they saw a pattern of overlap between what they learned from the student center and in school. Given that the tutoring center focused on helping students master the material covered in class, the chances of overlap on a regular basis were very high. An alert teacher should have kept that in mind.
As for the issue of using the same problems as on the real test, this is how it is done in a lot of AP classes. That's why AP teachers ask for old questions on public fora and collect their own. They use these questions not only to prepare the students for the AP exams but as valuable teaching tools in and of themselves. I remember my S commenting positively on some of the questions he had on the Calc exam.
I understand that from now until May, my S's AP classes will be periodically be given real AP questions as class tests.
As for parents blowing the whistle or condoning what happened: I have no idea what my S does at school. "How was school today?" "Okay; nothing much happened."</p>
<p><<as for="" parents="" blowing="" the="" whistle="" or="" condoning="" what="" happened:="" i="" have="" no="" idea="" my="" s="" does="" at="" school.="" "how="" was="" school="" today?"="" "okay;="" nothing="" much="" happened."="">></as></p>
<p>Been there, done that. Last year a coach was arrested for having sex with one of his softball players -- the arrest took place on school grounds (squad cars, handcuffs, the whole thing), various people were called out of S's classes throughout the day to find out who knew what and when, and the comment I got at home when I asked how school went? Fine. I didn't know anything until I read the paper the next day! Kids.</p>
<p>Marite - I don't really blame the teacher in this instance. She had no idea that these kids were even being tutored. They didn't advertise this fact. I'm pretty involved in the school, and I was surprised to find out that all these kids were being tutored. (they're A students!!) I also think she trusted the students to say, after an entire semester of classroom tests, that they had seen the test questions the day before, if they had. </p>
<p>I know that kids are given old tests to study for the actual AP exam all over the country. Our kids get those, too - all the kids. They'll have a group study time before the actual test, using old test questions. That's perfectly legitimate. In fact, if the teacher pulled out her test the day before, and said,"ok class, this is exactly what you have to know for tomorrow's exam," no one would be complaining. It's only because the kids who have paid for this prep service get a peek at what will face them a 8:00 the following morning that people think it's an unfair advantage.</p>
<p>Did the center know that these were the test the teacher was using? I still do not understand this.</p>
<p>"As for the issue of using the same problems as on the real test, this is how it is done in a lot of AP classes. That's why AP teachers ask for old questions on public fora and collect their own. They use these questions not only to prepare the students for the AP exams but as valuable teaching tools in and of themselves. "</p>
<p>I took a science class (college) like this. The professor has been teaching for at least 20 years. So, how is he supposed to continuously make knew questions? Eventually it gets impossible. He even placed his old tests on his website for students to print out and study from--yes he gave the site. So, of course, all of the questions he asked could be found from studying his old tests.</p>
<p>bluealien01 - no one is saying that there's anything wrong with a class using questions from old tests to study for the actual AP exam in May, or any exam. I would expect MOST teachers to do this. Very appropriate. They also ask the kids to by a Princeton Review book. :) This is all good!
These tests in question, which some students have been privy to, have nothing to do with the actual exam in May. It's the chapter tests, which the class GRADE is based on, that have been shared with the kids at the prep center. These tests are in a special book just for teachers - supposedly only released to schools, and not available online or at stores.<br>
Our school doesn't follow the practice that I've heard some schools go by, which is to give a student an A for the class if they earn a 4 or 5 on the AP test. Our public school does this, but not my son's school. Grades are based on performance in the class -tests, labs, participation, etc. Absolutely no relation to the actual AP exam. Anyone can take the AP exam - they don't have to have a class to do it.</p>
<p>Dis the test center know that these tests are the same? I would bet money on it.
And they certainly do now!</p>
<p>O.K. Just the facts please: Did the tutoring center have copies of the actual AP exam or not? It is legitimate to use all published material of previous exams and so on. It is clearly cheating if someone is actually looking, in advance, at the actual test they will take.</p>
<p>I wonder: Were the teachers tests completely the same as the ones in the tutoring center? Like exact copies? Most professors I know make their own tests.</p>
<p>mmsboy-No - not the actual ap exam, of course not.</p>
<p>The prep center has the new book that is used in the class, complete with test questions (not PRACTICE tests, which students have access to, but actual new tests that are published to be used by teachers in the classroom to test the material learned. ) The kid's grades are based on these semi-weekly exams, along with other factors.</p>
<p>bluealien - from what I understand, it's the same or close to it. In other words, the teacher may not use every question in the exact order, but that all, or very nearly all, are from the test book the school bought for that purpose.
So, if you're really wanting to blame someone other than those doing the cheating, I quess you could blame the teacher (and high school) for not making up an entirely different exam for this new book. In her defense, I believe she feels the questions are excellent, and the format is what the kids will experience on the actual AP test in May, and she wants to be sure that our kids are getting what everyone else in the country is getting.</p>
<p>My bet is she'll do a bit of rethinking that strategy.</p>
<p>So, what happens if her questions show up on the AP exam? Not only did the kids cheat, but she plagiarized right? This is confusing. Oh well. What is going to happen to the students that went to the tutoring center by the way?</p>
<p>No, the questions won't turn up on the exam, but similar ones probably will. That's the point of using the recommended text in the first place. The book of classroom tests is sold to schools with the express purpose of preparing students for the exam. Hopefully, they'll be somewhat related. But you never know! </p>
<p>I don't know of any consequences that have been given to the kids that saw the tests in advance. The teacher asked everyone who had been to the center to confidentially let her know, and to say which tests they had seen. Apparently, most fessed up. I really don't know if there were any grade adjustments, or the details of what transpired. I do know that they know better now - a lesson learned, hopefully.</p>
<p>Don't feel strange if this whole thing is confusing. I think that's why the High school felt it should just warn the kids. This whole case has some gray areas and all the blame doesn't rest with the students. They were cheating, but they did receive some mixed messages.</p>