Chem in HS

At our HS, you have to take Chem before you can take AP Bio. Not sure that would be waived. Could she take Chem at the CC in the summer?

I would also be careful about anecdotal info on a course. Is there only one chem teacher? What makes it so terrible?

@koshkas

The only one i really remember is College of Charleston. They required three lab science courses for applicants.

Doubling up would have helped. Relaxing “9-grade Bio” to “9-grade Any Science” would have helped, too. Unfortunately, our district doesn’t allow doubling up. On the other hand they have more flexible science graduation requirements (2 years, I think, but most kids take all 4 years anyway).

CC in summer option is very high on our list and very much preferred - IF they have a full-blown Chem course in summer AND she can get a spot. I checked the fall-winter-spring CC classes, but unfortunately local CCs only have Chem in the mornings - unlike math and CS which have many afternoon sessions.

I think, there are about 4 teachers who are doing AP and H (and a couple more who only do regular). One is ok (not great, but ok). We had direct experience with another and anecdotal info (however, a lot of it, from various sources) on others.

Main complaints are poor material presentation, teacher was not able to explain any concepts, unclear instructions for assignments, a LOT of busy work (in my S’s case, Chem H took as much time as Calc BC+BritLit+USHist+APCS put together). When the whole class would do poorly on test or anything, teacher would blame the kids for lazyness and yell at them. And this is your very good typical asian-dominated suburban HS. If anything, those kids are NOT lazy.

It was so with my S, his friends reported the same with other teachers. Now, a few years later, my D’s older friends report identical things for the same teachers :frowning:

Most of the top colleges want 3 years of lab sciences so Chemistry is a must.

However freshman General Chemistry at most colleges is a completely different animal. I have heard horror stories about General Chemistry 1 at my son’s school-it’s been described as baby quantum mechanics so high school Chemistry may not be all that useful or a good preparation.

By the time I graduated college I was one course short of a double major in Chemistry. So I ended up with a lot.
The freshman chem class was a weed-out course for pre-meds and I really did appreciate what I had in HS even if it wasn’t the best.

Yes, general chemistry in college is hard and that’s exactly why having chemistry and physics in high school is important.

For a student with STEM interests she definitely needs chemistry while in HS. The teaching may not be great but basic concepts still would be covered. There is so much she can add to the class on her own. I was an Honors Chemistry major at a top ten in the field U eons ago. My HS prepared me to solve problems and I still recall helping a woman down the hall master those basics. Exposure to how to solve problems is something she does not need to contend with in her first college chemistry. Plus so much vocabulary. And knowing lab equipment- beakers, flasks and so much more. She can add supplemental materials as needed to really learn problem solving.

No matter where she goes to college it will help her to have had the exposure to chemistry. The other students will be familiar with concepts, problem solving and lab equipment and will not face a steep learning curve along with everything else to be learned as a new college student. I always found it easier to learn things with an organized course rather than to try to self teach alone.

At the large public universities in my state, quite a few students of the students in the standard freshman general chemistry course have had AP Chemistry in high school. They scored high enough to receive credit for the college course, but it is the student’s choice whether to take the AP credit and move ahead or to decline the AP credit and take the course. Many of these students are looking for an essentially “guaranteed” A, and many of them get it. A student with no high school chemistry would be at a pretty serious disadvantage in the course.

I know that University of Minnesota College of Science and Engineering requires a year of biology, chemistry and physics for admission. Physics is the horrible course here; my kid wound up taking online physics instead. I would never want to try college chemistry with no background–that is a hard class WITH background. Other students wil be way too far ahead.

@koshkas and @thumper1 I think all the SC publics require Bio/Chem/Physics? I didn’t look, but that’s what our GC told us

Pre-med grade-grubbing?

Definitely look into a summer class at your local community college. Even if she does have a career path in mind, it will likely change by the time college rolls around. IMO, she needs the class. It also may help define her career interest.

In engineering, for example (I’ll use Texas A&M), you are admitted into general engineering your freshman year, and all students are required to take chemistry. This includes Aerospace Engineering, Biological & Agricultural Engineering, Biomedical Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Civil Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronic Systems Engineering Technology, Industrial Distribution, Industrial Engineering, Manufacturing & Mechanical Engineering Technology, Mechanical Engineering, Multidisciplinary Engineering Technology, Nuclear Engineering, Ocean Engineering, Petroleum Engineering.

Not having high school chemistry will make it much more difficult if required in college or potentially limit her career choices (like the ones above) if she avoids the majors that require it.

^^^ Or perhaps trying to keep up a GPA for scholarship renewal, Greek eligibility, honor societies, etc.

Also, some college advisors recommend taking the class if it’s a prerequisite for a higher class.

Pre-meds may not have a choice. They cannot AP out of med school requirements.

Thank you, everyone, again, for the information.

I had discussed it with D (or, rather, she discussed it with me :slight_smile: ) and here is the outcome:

She will either self-study and then will take Ap Chem junior year with AP Bio in senior (or the other way around) or
somehow take Chem in CC the summer after her sophomore year and then Ap Bio and AP Physics C
or something else comes up the next year - she will talk more with teachers and GC and we will see :wink:

From what I have seen so far, most of the colleges (I am sure not all! - hence my original posting) want to see “3 years of science” or “3 science courses” without specifying that those courses should be distinct thus making it a gray area.

Still, I agree that it’s not a good idea to come out of HS without any Chem class - the list of reasons is too long to count. So, we’ll see what can be done about it.

As a side note, I was never a fan of taking classes twice unless you are forced - pre-med or not. I consider it a waste of time and resources.
Partly I could be biased because for my kids any “easy” meaning “repeated” class does NOT “guarantee” and A. Especially for my oldest, it’s almost a “guaranteed” B! (thank goodness he is not pre-med :wink: )The youngest simply looses interest and stops trying to learn anything extra - not a good outcome either way.

The bottom line, we’ll try to get her some Chem - one way or another. Just in case, I will start looking for that good Chem tutor right away :slight_smile:

Wouldn’t they have a choice of substituting a more advanced course in the same subject area if they skip the lower level one with AP credit?

I think it varies. But if a pre-med is not a chem major they have to take a year of Organic and a year of General. Are most of them going to want to take a year of Chemistry past Orgaaic, in place of General if they are not a Chem major? You get in to some pretty heavy stuff in third year chem.

To clarify - this generally only applies to science. For noun-science courses, some med schools will accept APs as prereqs, but it does vary.

For most, if not all med schools, yes.

Right. Those are the alternatives; retake general chemistry, or take a more advanced year in addition to organic. To @VickiSoCal 's point, a non-chem major may not want to take the more advanced class.

My kids’ high school had terrible physics, but they took it anyway. When my daughter got to college and took astronomy, she started out behind and had to teach herself the things she had missed in her bad physics course. It made for a rough start to the semester. However, I don’t think she would have done as well if she hadn’t had any exposure to physics.

Since your daughter’s chem class will have a textbook, she will be able to learn something even if the teaching is poor. I would encourage her to take the class anyway.

“As a side note, I was never a fan of taking classes twice unless you are forced - pre-med or not. I consider it a waste of time and resources.”

I think the point some of us are trying to make is that college chem classes are not just a repeat of high school. They can be several levels above and without some prior background can be a real struggle.