<p>Hey gravenewworld, I remember you from PhysicsForums. You have a lot of great posts over there. I particularly enjoyed the “Scientist in Industry” discussion. You brought up a lot of interesting points.</p>
<p>I’m more of a Math/Physics/EE guy who knows very little about chemistry but for some reason I’m attracted to the instruments within chemistry. Is there much demand for instrument design within the chemistry industry? I know this falls under analytical but are those the guys designing the instruments or using them? </p>
<p>Also, have you come across any computational work within industry?</p>
<p>I think ultimately my interest is strongest in Materials Science but my school doesn’t offer that major so I’m tailoring an EE program with more of a physics flavor (optics, photonics, etc.). Materials Science seems like they use quite a bit of instruments and some neat physics. Can anyone tell me if Materials Science differs much from Chemistry?</p>
<p>Analytical people both use and do research on new methods for instruments. I really couldn’t tell you what the overall picture looks like for instrument design. There really are only a few heavy hitters in terms of most analytical equipment–Water, Bruker, Agilent off the top of my head. Why don’t you go to their website and check for job listings to get an idea? </p>
<p>As far as computational work, yes it exists in industry. In pharma, people are trying to model things like receptors and trying to predict which analogs would be active ligands for such a binding site. But again, these jobs are very rare and competition for many of them is going to be fierce. </p>
<p>Look, I don’t have all the answers here, in fact I could be completely wrong. But in my opinion we have to face the fact that here in the United States, now, we are probably going to have the most educated, most under/unemployed work force in the history of our country. The days of having a long term job with decent wages, a pension, and reliable health care benefits are gone. Why would any company in their right mind pay an American worker to do the work that a person in China or India is capable of doing if they have to pay things like health care costs, social security taxes, and retirement benefits for an American? IMO, we’re absolutely screwed. Be prepared to work until you die, don’t get sick or injured, and don’t count on uncle sam for any social security payments when you get old. This day in age, you have to be willing to travel anywhere for a job, and that means going to any country in the world. Don’t give any companies your loyalty, because when times are tough they will be the first ones to stab you in the back whether it’d be by taking your 401 k away, giving you no health care, or completely laying you off. People aren’t joking when they say you should learn another language. I’d say an analytical degree that requires good math skills, being able to use computers and knowing a programming language like C/C++, and also being able to speak more than 1 language will make you highly employable, at least for now. The question now for people in this country isn’t “What would I like to do for a living?”, but rather “WHERE can I even find work?”</p>
<p>Thanks for the reply. I don’t expect you to know everything. I just wanted some input from you because you seem to know (care?) about the chemistry industry. I’m a bit older and I have many friends from a range of careers. Several of my close friends are chemists, all wet, and they seem to have decent jobs. They do regret not doing a more math/computer savvy major like engineering or CS because their jobs are pretty mundane. They run tests on chemicals get a result and repeat 20 times a day. They don’t really have to use much math other than basic calculations. All them say that most chemists are the “blue collars” of science and usually get treated as such from their pay and hours. </p>
<p>With that all said, I usually ask them if there are jobs within the chemistry industry that they would enjoy and every single one has said “only if I had a M.S. or maybe even a PhD.” According to them, those are the guys doing the “interesting” work. I know this is all anecdotal evidence but just to let everyone know 2 are from pharma and the other is from industrial(?) where he does tests on oil and other chemicals for machines. </p>
<p>Thanks again, gravenewworld, for the replies.</p>
<p>My experiences in pharma doing synthetic organic and medicinal chemistry as a BS was a dream job for most chemistry graduates and I was extremely lucky to have gotten it. It is, however, not easy to get such a job. My previous job experience is not typically the norm. After getting laid off, I eventually found a job, although I had to take a $15K paycut. My daily routine consists of doing endless amounts of HPLC injections, making buffers, and other mundane activities that a high school freshman could do. I feel as though most BS chemists do end up getting jobs like this for little or low pay or if they are lucky enough to land a more interesting lab gig, they have a strong chance of being nothing more than a “permatemp” with no retirement benefits or health care. I really don’t see things improving in the chemical industry for a long time, if ever again. The jobs have all been shipped overseas. It can be extremely difficult to get into R&D without experience as a BS, but how can you gain experience if no one will hire you? It’s also extremely difficult to get a job as a PhD because of the huge glut of the number of doctorates that apply for almost every position. It’s a no win situation. If you want to work in the chemical industry you have to be very smart about what you pursue. Green chemistry, catalysts (computational work here possibly), polymer chemistry all seem to be healthier fields in the industry than other areas like pharma or working for big firms like DuPont, DOW, etc. etc (I’d say polymer chemistry is pretty attractive). </p>
<p>I am now exactly like one of your friends, and totally agree that many, many, many of the positions out there for BS graduates are nothing more than “blue collar work”. I really don’t see the opportunity for advancement with a BS degree and will always be stuck working mundane jobs at low or mediocre pay for the rest of my life. In my opinion, I really don’t see an advanced degree as the answer either. There is simply too much job loss and insane amounts of competition from the huge amount of PhDs applying for each position. Don’t let my pessimism deter you though. There certainly are excellent opportunities out there at the BS, MS, and PhD levels. It requires a certain amount of luck, planning, and smart choices on your part to land such a position. I would definitely choose carefully which area you choose to be employed in, because once you get into one type of industry, it can be very difficult to get out. If an employer in say pharma or green chemistry sees that you’ve been working in the food industry for the past 15 years, do you think they are going to hire you? I don’t see anything left for me in the chemical industry which is why I am starting all over again and moving on to engineering.</p>
<p>^What kind of Engineering are you trying to get into? ChemE?
I’m a senior Chemistry major with a minor in Math and I def don’t want to do mundane work. I’m looking for business-related jobs that look for Science/Math majors or any major through my school’s website but if that doesn’t work out I’m kind of interested in LEAP program at Boston University. I could’ve majored in Math but I didn’t know what I could do with it. I wish I discovered I liked math earlier.</p>
<p>The only part of Chemistry I like is how Physical Chemistry literally teaches you everything.</p>
<p>What do ppl think of professional science M.S.? I’m very interested in materials and nanotech. I’ve found quite a nice program in Engineering Physics that focuses on nanoscience and materials:</p>
<p>Bioengineering. The LEAP program sounds like a great idea, but how much money do you have to take out? Despite what people say, I’m really not a fan at all of taking out a lot of money for an education. I don’t see the payoff for years and years of student loan debt for a middle class job. But this is up for you, and only for you to decide. Many engineers do come out of school and earn comfortable incomes while having no problem at all paying off their student loans. If you can get one of the scholarships the LEAP program offers, it looks like a fantastic idea. </p>
<p>Most “business jobs” you will be offered and find will be for sales positions. Sales people can make a lot of money, but you have to like it. Personally I could not stand sales. Businesses routinely look for people with analytical skills, so play up your math abilities. Talk as much as you can to your school’s career services department, maybe they can find you something. I still say getting into a field like polymer chemistry is a viable option, and you may land an interesting job that doesn’t require rote and mundane work that pays you a decent wage. However finding an entry level job in polymer chemistry with just a BS and 0 experience is going to be very difficult and you have to be willing to live anywhere in the country (yes that means moving away from your friends). If you can, try to also stay away from temp agencies. Many chemist jobs you find will just be through agencies. Once they suck you in, it can be very difficult to get out of the permatemp cycle.</p>
<p>I’m having a heart attack over here. I’m a prospective Chemistry or Pharmacy major. The more I read these forums the more I’m leaning to the Pharmacy program I want to go to</p>
<p>No one is trying to scare you. Just become informed before you take out that $100k loan to pay for school. There’s no guarantee for a decent job in almost any field these days, and you will be stuck with a massive tab afterwards. Regarding pharmacy, don’t take my word, but rather the word from people in the field (read the whole thread and make your own conclusions):</p>
<p>Many schools hype up the fact that pharmacists can make over $100k, but at the same time they hide the fact that in only 10 years, the number of schools churning out PharmDs has increased by almost 50%. The result has been a glut of PharmDs now entering the market, making it very difficult to find jobs in some places for them. No organization limits the amount of PharmD students that can graduate or the number of schools that can get accredited just like law schools. PharmD is starting to go the way of the JD, where students are forced to take out $100k in loans only to find that they can not find any reasonable work that will allow them to pay off their debt. Schools don’t care about you, they only care about your $$$ first. Many schools have shady ethics when it comes to releasing the employment info and salaries of the recent graduates because of the way that they selectively pick out which graduates they get information from. </p>
<p>Get informed, choose carefully, and be smart. After you’ve REALLY done your homework, who knows maybe chemistry or pharm is still for you.</p>
<p>I have a PhD in biology but am now in an administrative position where I have to understand the requirements and rigors for getting a PhD in other disciplines, including chemistry. This seems like an appropriate thread for my question.</p>
<p>Typically, we understand a PhD as a life-threatening endeavor which, if it not fatal, will produce a scholar. However, my initial observations on doctoral work in the area of synthetic organic chemistry, supported by comments from some chemists, is that this is not true for this field. Rather, it seems that getting a PhD in synthetic organic chemistry involves mindlessly applying yourself to small variations in a desired synthetic pathway along side many other PhD students likewise applying their own minor variations to the same pathway. You repeat this robotic cycle for four or five or six years, publish a 2-page article in JACS, and then you’re on your way into the big bag world without having learned much except for some microtechniques in a microdomain of the field.</p>
<p>One of the clues that suggests that this may be true is the fact that many professors of synthetic chemistry have up to 20 PhD students in their labs – in other words, far, far more than could be effectively supervised if you are trying to produce scholars, but OK if the goal is to produce robots.</p>
<p>I’d appreciate any insights on this matter.</p>
<p>Hate to admit it, but he’s right. You’ll almost never use thermo, quantum, or pchem in general in industry for the vast majority of most positions, especially at the BS level.</p>
<p>That seriously made me kind of die inside. The interesting fun part of chemistry was learning the instruments, the electronics, quantum chemistry, stat mech, thermo, electrochemistry, materials, etc. the stupid dumb part was Biochemistry and washing all the stupid glassware.</p>
<p>I am posting this so hopefully college students thinking about pursuing an industrial career in chemistry will take the same advice that was given to me (I regret not listening to them) when I was just starting my undergraduate education. </p>
<p>I was first attracted to chemistry because I loved doing research and wanted to pursue a career as research chemist in industry. Well I can’t speak for all chemistry, but after receiving my PhD in synthetic organic chemistry from a good research institution with a couple of first author publications I am unemployed. I have applied everywhere, I am not picky about what type of chemistry or industry, and am willing to relocate anywhere. Now I am considering a post doc or changing careers. I am in general an optimistic person, but unfortunately although chemistry is very interesting at the end of the day when you want to have a life and a family organic chemistry is a poor profession. </p>
<p>If you are willing to do a post doc for a few years then possibly you can eventually get a good job after your PhD, but it sure is a long and difficult road. I am already starting to regret my decision to spend so many years of my life slaving away in graduate school. I would recommend students interested in chemistry to instead pursue chemical engineering, materials science, or food science.</p>
<p>The job market is saturated with medicinal chemists, synthetic organic chemists, organometallic chemists, and even to some extent analytical chemists due to massive layoffs in the pharmaceutical and chemical industry. Current chemists in the chemical industry are unwilling to retire because they are not financially in a position to retire, or simply just love their job and don’t want to. This has created a job market with very few entry level positions.</p>
<p>Yep food in general is a better industry than chemical manufacturing or pharma. People always need food even healthy people, It is more difficult to outsource because it is perishable and food regulations vary tremendously from one country to another also there have been scares about the quality of food products from some countries.</p>
<p>My grad program put me on a trajectory for either pharma or academia and I’m glad I veered off that road to nowhere.</p>
<p>hello…i m a undergraduate student from pakistan…i love to study chemistry specially organic chemistry or biochemistry while my parents want to see me as a medical doctor…?? now i m confused after reading your stuff about chemistry profession …please inform is their really no value n worth of phd in organic or biochemistry in entire world</p>