<p>Why either/or? Many people speak more than two languages. As you live in SoCa, I’d take the Spanish for now (keeping in mind that the Spanish of Spain is <em>not</em> the Spanish of the New World) and work on the Mandarin later. But there’s no reason to give up one for the other.</p>
<p>A relative travels to China for business about 4x a year…but I don’t believe he speaks it much. A little will carry you a long way. People like it when you make an attempt to speak to them in their own language. I spent a couple of weeks in China a few years ago. I went some places on my own, separate from the tour. Though I could say only about 4 things (hi, bye, thanks, etc), you’d be amazed how much their faces light up if you even try. If I said anything beyond ‘hello’, they’d ask me if I was working in their country because so many tourists don’t bother to learn <em>anything</em>. Of course, they’d have to ask me in English…</p>
<p>Only knowing a little bit of Chinese is not going to make a big difference to employers. If they’re interested in applicants who know Chinese, they’re going to be interested in people who are fluent or at least strongly conversant in Chinese. So if you want to dedicate the next three years of your schooling, including a year studying abroad in China, to learning Chinese, then it is worth it. But if you’re not sure that’s going to be for you, I think it’s much smarter to stick with Spanish. Feel free to try a Chinese course and see how it goes, but you’re much more likely to become a fluent Spanish speaker at this point than a fluent Chinese speaker, and it’s really your fluency that is going to be your asset. </p>
<p>Even if you don’t plan to live in South America, Central America, or Spain, having fluency in Spanish is a huge plus right here in the United States. Anyone who works in politics can tell you that, as can many who work in business. It’s not just good in California or Florida, but in states all over the US, having Spanish is a big help and depending on the inudustry of interest to you, it can be good for your career prospects. </p>
<p>As I said, feel free to try Chinese, but since you’re already so far along with Spanish, I think the wisest course is to stick to that.</p>
<p>I studied Spanish in high school, majored in Japanese in college and spoke Mandarin growing up. I’m currently learning French and Italian when I have the time. I don’t use any of my language skills in my field of work though, I just like languages. </p>
<p>I’d definitely say in California, Spanish definitely the most useful language of the group and the one most likely to see some use on the job in law, business and medical professions. Spanish and other romance languages are also the easiest to learn for native English speakers because both languages share a similar alphabet and grammar structure.</p>
<p>If you have some background in Spanish already, it’s not too hard to further improve it on your own or with language tapes and books. </p>
<p>Mandarin Chinese can have a fairly difficult learning curve for non-native non-asian speakers. I believe most colleges teach using the ping-yin system which is not a very accurate representation of how the language is pronounced. There’s technically no alphabet, just pure character memorization. Then you have to learn how to write Chinese characters and learn/memorize stroke orders. There is a lot less grammar in Chinese than there is in English, and fortunately (or unfortunately) unlike the romance languages, no verb conjugation. There are 4 basic tones in Mandarin (the 4th tone is generally the toughest for non-natives and even some American born Chinese). If you are interested in travelling to China or leveraging your language skills for employment then I think college is an excellent environment to learn Chinese, especially more business related Chinese vocabulary and cultural expectations. Definitely take at least 2-3 years of Chinese. College level language courses are very intensive over a short period of time which means retention over time can be difficult - so do some short term study abroad program if you can.</p>
<p>You also mention Japanese, which can be another tough language for non-Asians to learn. Chinese speakers will have an advantage in reading/writing and guessing at the meaning of the characters (Japanese borrows heavily from Chinese characters), while Korean speakers will have an advantage with pronunciation and grammar (Japanese grammar is very similar). That leaves the non-Asian students sometimes struggling to keep up with learning both how to write and memorize the Chinese characters and at the same time figure out the complex grammar of Japanese. A plus for learning Japanese is that the language does have an “alphabet”, romanizes easily to English and borrows many modern terms and words from Western languages. I believe that for a fluent reader of Japanese, knowing around only 500 Chinese characters is necessary. Japanese grammar can be tough and even difficult for native speakers to explain the why’s of. The sentence structure is reversed (compared to English) and often drops the subject and sometimes the object. Like Japanese society, many things are implied by context. I won’t go into the details of formal, informal and honorific forms which can get infinitely confusing. It’s a good language to learn as the Japanese are not as fluent in English as many other Asian countries, and there are many intricacies in their business and personal relations that are just not obvious to non-Japanese. </p>
<p>Personally I think if you want to seriously learn any of the Asian languages, college is an excellent environment for giving you a kick start.</p>
<p>As far as that goes, Korean is a great language. There are great business opportunities and geopolitical opportunities, and not a lot of people are expert in the country…</p>
<p>We found that the tough part was finding a college that offered four years of Mandarin, with enough classes that if one time slot did not work (due to conflicting with a class required by the major), another would be available. Even fewer schools offered Japanese or Korean in well-developed programs. If you have the opportunity to take one of these Asian languages at your college and enjoy learning languages, I would take advantage of it. </p>
<p>It is also helpful if a school has enough language students to separate heritage speakers from those learning the language from scratch, for at least the first few years of study. Chinese is difficult and time-consuming enough without having to keep up with others who already speak the language and are in the class to learn the characters.</p>
<p>OP-- my college senior S had the same dilemma. Native of Texas. He took 8 years of Japanese in private school and has chosen to take Mandrian in college.</p>
<p>His first job after he graduates is in Taipei. He lived there for a month last year. He says that while speaking Mandrian is not absolutely necessary, he feels that it is a nice plus.</p>
<p>Golfer3, considering that you already speak decent Spanish I would recommend you to take Chinese. It is not easy though, but if you are dreaming to live in Asia (China?) in the future, knowledge of the language -even basic - is VERY-VERY important just for everyday life.
In addition, for career opportunities it is always better to know more then one language, if you know two languages, it is great! I believe that knowing any foreign language is a plus for CV and additional career opportunities, especially if you plan to work abroad some day.
I wouldn’t recommend to learn Japanese or Korean though These languages are very difficult too but there are less opportunities to find a job in Japan or Korea (of course, you can teach English there but this is not your purpose, isn’t it?)</p>
<p>I would go with the Spanish. The problem with Chinese is that there are many, many, many Chinese Americans who speak, read, understand Chinese far, far better than you will ever likely to come close to achieving. Competing with them for a job…well, it’s no contest. If you are truly interested in doing things in China, and want to study China, visit China, etc, then by all means take Chinese, but do not expect that this is going to increase your career options. I think it’s great to get a taste of the language and know many kids at my son’s high school who are taking it as a 3rd language option after finishing their required foreign language requirement. But to get to a working level of competency is very difficult.</p>
<p>Spanish is very useful at all spectrums. When sons were looking just for any type of work, in sales, services, etc, you are on the top of the list in this area if you are reasonably fluent in Spanish and getting to that milestone is nowhere nearly as difficult as in Chinese. Two of my kids speak enough Spanish that they qualify, one from a summer in Columbia, South America, and the other from many years of elementary/middle school Spanish, 4 years of high school Spanish and 2 years at college. He has found work as a translator even though he does not consider himself fluent by a long shot. He’s the best they can find, the shortage is so acute in the NYC area. </p>
<p>So for pure pragmatism, Spanish, hands down.</p>
<p>No question Chinese is more difficult than Spanish but how much more difficult is highly variable. Some English speakers, no matter how interested or motivated, cannot learn well enough, quickly enough to make it reasonable. Others, although they must invest the time, seem to “get it” much more quickly. You won’t know unless you try and if you do decide to try Chinese I would start now because if you decide to continue you will need time on your side.</p>
<p>I would also add that it will be helpful with scheduling courses if you begin with 101 in the fall and 102 in the spring - to be off kilter by a semester could create a problem for you because after year one the Chinese language students tend to disappear and there are far fewer sections.</p>
<p>I speak as the father of a DD who just spent 4 years learning japanese in HS and is enrolling in an architecture program, and who sometimes checks out archinect.</p>
<p>lots of US archies are getting jobs in the far east cause the market here sucks. They are getting them in China and Korea. Japan may have more severe demographics than China, but it also has loads of university trained professionals. China does not so much, relative to the size of its economy. If you want to be a blue collar worker, or work in a nursing home, go to Japan by all means, the prospects are a zillion times better than in China. If you want to be a professional, I would bet on China. Japenese professionals are paid better than Chinese, I am sure, but I dont think theres a huge demand for foreign professionals there.</p>
<p>And Japanese is as hard to learn, if not harder, than Chinese.</p>
<p>Just curious about the salary levels for the above architects getting jobs in Asia. My understanding is that there are no expat salaries in this field - that architects go over there taking a pretty substantial salary cut - either to just have a job or because they really love living in Asia. Something to think about when starting your career?</p>
<p>@cptofthehouse, I would respectively disagree. There are jobs in China today that call for foreigners with some level of Chinese. Depending on nature of the job, you may not need that much knowledge of Chinese language for the job. Dual language skill helps.
BTW this comment comes from an immigrant who grew up in China.</p>
<p>My SIL who has a talent for languages is fluent to reasonably so in 7 languages. English ranks in the middle and she has a Harvard MBA. Her most useless language is Mandarin. She consistently has lost every Chinese opportunity to those who grew up with Chinese and of course are far more fluent than she is . This is at the upper echelons of jobs, and she is one of the top drawer candidates repeatedly. </p>
<p>Even in the lower job levels, you aren’t going to find much opportunity as someone with second level Chinese skills. I don’t see the kids even fluent in Chinese getting jobs over China or anywhere. And they are way ahead in the dual language lines. I don;t see it and I do a lot of work in job placement. Spanish will immediately and always give you a leg up in a vast majority of situations.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that there aren;t some opportunities or advantages. I’m telling you that it is far easier and more plentiful with Spanish than Chinese. I’d like to see the lists of jobs for those with a smattering of Chinese. I know a lot of kids and families who have been looking for something for a long time.</p>
<p>cpt has touched on something I said a while back. Op is interested in a foreign language as a job getter. Not to make vacations easier, not for merely the joy of learning.
I’m sure ksx is correct that there are jobs for foreigners in China who speak a little Chinese.
But since Op is seeking employment advice, one has to ask oneself- what is best for a job? Or to phrase it another way- how many lawyers in America need to speak Chinese to get work? If there is a big %, then it makes sense to learn. Same way with corporate execs. Do a big % here need to speak Chinese? Or Spanish, how many lawyers or corporate execs here need to speak the language to get a job?
Are ther opportunities here for those who speak a foreign language fairly well? I’m sure there are some. But far far more jobs here don’t require a foreign language than those that do. And as cpt has shown, in the small market that does require a foreign language, those who speak it fairly well are likely to be passed over for those who speak it well.</p>
<p>Based on D1s experience I think Mandarin is very tough to become really fluent, and there are zillions of chinese -americans, many who speak it at home and have been attending Chinese school since childhood, who have a huge advantage. If D1 knew then what she knows now, she would never have pursued it past intro level. She has now sunk multiple years into learning the language and is still not sufficiently proficient to get work based on that. She reports that reading and writing is particularly challenging, since huge numbers of words are not phonetic but rather are formed with a bunch of different squiggles, picture symbols, that must be individually memorized.</p>
<p>“And Japanese is as hard to learn, if not harder, than Chinese.” </p>
<p>Japanese has far fewer words that are not phonetic I was told. Much, much fewer. Though still quite a lot, but nowhere near as many as Chinese. For this reason I was told that developing the ability to read/write Japanese is somewhat easier. Though still quite difficult. But I have no firsthand knowledge.</p>
<p>“Japanese has far fewer words that are not phonetic I was told. Much, much fewer.”</p>
<p>Japanese is written with non-phonetic characters, kanji just as chinese is. It ALSO has two phonetic writing systems, mainly used for japanese and western names, certain japenese grammatical particles with no chinese equivalents, some western words, etc. But to be literate in Japanese you need to memorize kanji, just as in Chinese. And Japanese grammar is more different from indo-european grammar than Chinese is, IIUC, and Japanese has a system of honorifics - words vary depending on the status/age/gender of the speaker and the person being addressed.</p>
<p>OTOH, Japanese does not use tones, as Chinese does.</p>
<p>"Just curious about the salary levels for the above architects getting jobs in Asia. My understanding is that there are no expat salaries in this field - that architects go over there taking a pretty substantial salary cut - either to just have a job or because they really love living in Asia. Something to think about when starting your career? "</p>
<p>if they are working for a western firm in asia, IIUC they get expat salaries, and can live quite well. If they work for an asian firm, free lance, or whatever, they get local salaries. OTOH for many right now the alternative is working at home depot, waiting table while doing a dribble of free lance in the states, etc. There are stories of some arch firms offering degreed archies “internships” compensated with bus fare and lunch. There are people doing all kinds of the desperate things to keep their skills up.</p>
<p>Its rough right now. Living at a local standard of living in China doesnt sound like a bad option to many, in that context.</p>
<p>“But to be literate in Japanese you need to memorize kanji, just as in Chinese.”</p>
<p>I was told that, but that the amount of words needed to be memorized in this fashion was far fewer than in chinese, it was a subset, relatively speaking. Though still quite a large amount.</p>
<p>That’s just what a SE asian studies student told me while we were discussing it in a bookstore. She had her advanced Japanese books out, and since D1 was studying Chinese I chatted with her about it. she said Japanese was supposedly easier, in part for this reason. I could be completely wrong.</p>
<p>“Historically, the Kanji Writing System was imported from China, but as time the time went by, kanji writing has evolved into a part of the Japanese Writing System by using the borrowed ideograms to indicate pronunciation.”</p>
<p>That’s a big difference from what I gleen because the Chinese ones do not indicate pronunciation which is the problem. Together with the shear numbers of such symbols one must memorize.</p>
<p>"@cptofthehouse, I would respectively disagree. There are jobs in China today that call for foreigners with some level of Chinese. Depending on nature of the job, you may not need that much knowledge of Chinese language for the job. "</p>
<p>D1 reports that the level of proficiency to get any job there, other than teaching English, is very high. A close acquaintance of hers has also been actively trying to do just that, but still does not have the required level of proficiency they think is needed, even after studying through advanced level I in college and then living there for over a year.</p>
<p>When I took both Japanese and Chinese in college, I found that Japanese was infinitely harder than Chinese (Northwestern’s Japanese program though is particularly difficult).</p>
<p>Chinese requires mostly memorization of characters - the grammar is pretty much nonexistent as you don’t need to conjugate verbs or anything, tenses are just indicated by one extra word or so, etc.</p>
<p>Japanese requires memorization of kanji (Chinese characters), which is different from the Chinese characters that you would learn in a Chinese class in that Japanese kanji is written in traditional Chinese and modern Chinese is now “simplified.” Traditional is easier to pronounce because the words consist of two parts - a radical (telling you how to pronounce it) and then a meaning (telling you roughly what the word might mean). But you’re still looking at pictures. =P And unless you know the radicals, you’re f’ed. Simplified Chinese, because it’s cut down, loses some of those meanings so it becomes difficult to tell what a character could mean/be pronounced. AND Japanese grammar is difficult…and there’s a bunch of conjugations depending on the tense, level of politeness, etc.</p>
These languages are very difficult too but there are less opportunities to find a job in Japan or Korea (of course, you can teach English there but this is not your purpose, isn’t it?)</p>