Choosing a safety school

Parents Forum
1

<p>I'm new to the forum and I just posted a question in College Admissions that I meant to post here. My child hasn't started this process yet. We are curious about how a student would choose safety schools, rather than getting too excited about schools that one cannot get into. A good friend's senior just received rejection letters from nearly every school on the list prepared with help from a paid college admissions advisory company. This student has a 3.4 GPA and many strong extracurriculars. The rejections were from private schools. The list contains a few reach schools but most are considered safety schools or have less stringent requirements than the top universities, with average freshman class admission GPAs ranging from 3.5-3.6 This student is only getting into schools with a 3.2-3.3 average GPA. Don't the schools always take some students whose GPAs are higher than average and some whose are lower? </p>

<p>-What is considered a safety school? How do you determine that?
-Are colleges, private schools especially, raising their requirements each year?
-Does the major one chooses affect admissions?
-What would a student with strong talent extracurriculars and a 3.5-3.6 GPA from an extremely difficult high school look for in choosing a college to get a good match with few rejections? Either public or private schools are fine.
-Does it help if the student has all A's in high school courses related to the major field of choice? (either math, science, or engineering?)
-Are students at a disadvantage if their schools do not rank students?
-How important are recommendation letters and how can you be sure the person writing the recommendation will say the right things to help a student get into a particular college?</p>

<p>I'm discouraged in reading the student forums as it seems everyone there has above a 3.95 GPA and nearly perfect SAT scores.</p>

2

<br>


<br>

<p>I'm assuming that "the list" is the list of the student who was rejected with a 3.4 GPA, not your child.</p>

<p>First of all, don't panic! Your will never know the whole story of the friend's child. This kid may have had a suspension that you don't know about, for example.
Unfortunately GPAs are the most inflated, but most important piece of the admission puzzle. Most schools, especially selective schools, re-calculate GPAs based on their own criteria, so who knows what this kid's actual academic GPA was.</p>

<p>To drill down to the question that may be the most important for your child. A student interested in engineering needs to go to an accredited engineering school. Tech schools aside, the best choice for most would-be engineers is the big state flagship Uni with engineering. The vast majority of these schools will happily admit a student with a 3.5-3.6 GPA and 4.0 in math/science - and don't give a flip either way about extra-curriculars. A kid in this position might apply to a couple of private tech schools just to see, and the state universities. CA residents might be an exception, because that system has all its own rules.
To answer the other questions best as I can - opinion, pure opinion.
Colleges don't raise their requirements every year, but the quality of the pool improves every year, so the bar is higher. Published figures are generally behind.
The more competitive the school, the LESS disadvantaged the student is by the school not ranking. Example, a selective public high school for math and science - a student might have a 1600 SAT(old style) and a 3.8-3.9 unweighted average and be outside the top 10%, maybe outside top15% depending on how competitive the school - this is kid is better off not ranked, because the rank is so skewed.</p>

<p>It doesn't hurt if the the kid expresses an interest in science and has all As in science, but it doesn't help either, ie it won't offset the lower English grades, because math/science hates English is a typical package.</p>

<p>Major can affect at some schools I think, but I don't really know much about those type schools - my kid didn't look at those types of schools.</p>

<p>What's a safety and how to pick it? Again, for an engineer, the safety will often be the state engineering school, so I don't think most of the discussion of safeties will apply. A liberal definition of safety is a school that the student's SATs are in at least the upper 50%, and the school accepts at least 50% of applicants. Now these are sliding numbers. If the student is close to the 50th percentile on stats, then the acceptance rate should be in the 80s. Vice versa, if the student is in the upper 10% or 25% of applicants, then the acceptance rate can go down and the school still be a safety.
A conservative definition of safety is the student's stats are in the upper 25% of accepted students AND the acceptance rate is greater than 50%.
This would not apply to a child with a 3.5 GPA, but for really high stat kids - 4.0/1500+old SAT, etc., maybe no real "reaches" statistically, so they follow a match-reach pattern.</p>

<p>Finally, if any stats are skewed, then drop down a notch to look for safeties.</p>

3

<p>Hey PV -- Here's some previous threads that I've saved on this. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=58303%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=58303&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=111748%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=111748&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=111748%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=111748&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=29648%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=29648&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

4

<p>This was someone else's child, who took the barest number of college required courses, and had some problems with some of them, especially math. Mine hasn't begun the application process yet and has not taken the SATs. Not sure about which of the sciences to apply to, may or may not apply in engingeering, might also be interested in another major.</p>

<p>Is there a way to search for more than one word? I tried searching for safety schools before I posted, and got results for "safety" and results for "schools" which was more than I could read. </p>

<p>My friend's child applied to schools primarily in California and Arizona, and most were taken from the Schools that Change Lives list. The competition for those schools must have gone up. </p>

<p>Mine is aiming for 1100 on the SATs. There are some issues with that, some kids just don't test well but do well in class. Anything higher than that would be a gift. The final GPA could be 3.6 by the end of senior year, but will most likely be 3.5 by the end of junior year. This is without AP or honors classes, as this high school school is small and extremely difficult, so they don't push honors or AP, nor are there many offered.</p>

<p>By graduation mine will have 3-4 years of lab science, 4-5 years of math (began algebra in 8th grade)--(will either take math or science senior year but not both) 4 years of English, 4 of history, 2 of language (due to scheduling difficulties), plus a variety of electives. Also some very strong hobbies and talents in both the arts and electronics.</p>

<p>Would it be advisable to take a summer program?</p>

5

<p>PV, don't get discouraged by the student profiles you read. This board self selects and some students <cough!> exaggerate. </cough!></p>

<p>However...and I wish I could draw a diagram on a board to explain this...if you have average stats for a school, you have less than an average chance for getting in. I would not rest easy if I were an "unhooked" applicant unless my stats were at the 75th percentile or better.</p>

<p>For the past several years and through the next few years, there are increasing numbers of students graduating from high school (the Baby Boom echo) for what are essentially a flat number of spots. Thus, yes, many colleges are getting increasingly competitive.</p>

6

<p>Since you live in Calif., you can use some Cal States as safeties. Also, Arizona, Arizona State, and NAU are good bets with those grades.</p>

<p>If you don't like big schools, many of the Cal State schools are not large. Sonoma State, Humboldt State, and Monterey Bay are not large schools for example.</p>

<p>You can work up from there.</p>

7

<p>"This student has a 3.4 GPA and many strong extracurriculars. The rejections were from private schools. The list contains a few reach schools but most are considered safety schools or have less stringent requirements than the top universities, with average freshman class admission GPAs ranging from 3.5-3.6 This student is only getting into schools with a 3.2-3.3 average GPA."</p>

<p>Isn't what is happening exactly what the numbers are telling you SHOULD be happening? I don't see what's so hard to understand. There will be occasional 3.2 students who get into the 3.6 school, and 3.6 students who get rejected from the 3.2 school, but averages are, by definition, average.</p>

<p>Safety - more than half get in. SAT/ACT at or above the 75th percentile; GPA the same. At that level, barring Tufts syndrome, there is around a 95% certainly of getting in, AND the education offered may be great!</p>

8

<p>I think you have to take into account geographical distribution too. With the same stats, you have a much better shot at getting into a "private" school that is far away and seeks geographical diversity (which most care about a LOT I think). Ditto for scholarship chances.</p>

<p>Also, if that child's application was very clearly done by an advisor, that may turn off admissions people too. They are looking for kids with initiative, not someone who just hired out the whole thing.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
This was someone else's child, who took the barest number of college required courses...

[/quote]
PV, this is one of the most important clues to your friend's application outcomes. The most selective schools focus more than almost anything else on the high school record - this consists not just of the GPA (or rank if there is one), but on the strength of the program. These schools want to see students taking the most challening program available to them and taking a full complement of the "recommended hs preparation" (4 English, 4 Math, 4 lab science, 4 for language, etc.).</p>

<p>Now, this will vary and not all students are aiming for the uber-selective schools which are the focus of the "kids' threads" (as we call them) here on cc. Were I you, I would not spend much time on those threads, as they are misleading, can be depressing and rarely offer the valuable advice, wisdom and support you will find here in the Parent Forum.</p>

<p>Thanks to lderochi for bookmarking all of those threads, where I'm sure you will find tons of good tips.</p>

<p>The nutshell keys to a safety school, imo, are:[ul][<em>]have more than one[</em>]have them be like the dream school in as many respects as possible other than selectivity (eg, size, type of location, atmosphere...)[<em>]have the student be in the top 25% of the SAT/ACT profile for the admitted class[</em>]have the student stack up well against the GPA and class rank profile (but don't worry if your school doesn't rank)[li] - critical point- the saftey school must have an acceptance rate of greater than 50%, the higher the better [/ul] A couple other thoughts:</p>[/li]
<p>Your friend's kid had an application list of what they thought "most are considered safety schools." No such animal. A school is a safety school only in the context of a given applicant's profile. One kid's safety is another kid's super-reach.</p>

<p>Where you are expecting in the neighborhood of 1100 SATs, I encourage you even more strongly to avoid the kids' threads, especially the "what are my chances?" types. They'll give you an ulcer ;). Instead, spend time here on the parent threads which focus on the "average" kid/B+ student, etc. I'll admit that, even here in the PF, the really high achievers are more typical. But the others are here.</p>

<p>There are so many success stories for these kids and there is a big payoff to "doing the work" of going beyond household names to find the right fit schools which will be exciting to your student. My own step-gS got into a well-respected "more selective", but not "most selective" state U with a 3.0 GPA, under-prepared hs program and under 1000 SAT. He is doing great and I had lots of support here on cc helping him.</p>

<p>Browse through <a href="http://www.fairtest.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.fairtest.org&lt;/a> for schools which don't require SATs/ACTs at all. There are some great schools among them. Because I agree with you that SATs don't tell the tale for some of our kids. But you will find some great schools where the 1100 SATs and a solid GPA are a winning combination. GPA better than SAT is a better combination to have than the "underachiever" combo of great SATs and lackluster GPA.</p>

<p>Welcome!</p>

10

<p>If you post the things your student is looking for in a college (size, location, bigtime sports/don't care, heavy Greek or not, urban/bucolic, majors of interest, religious/not...) - if s/he knows that yet, you will get many well-researched suggestions. And you will find over time that people post information-rich summaries of their school visits to help you get to know a goodly number of schools and give you ideas of schools to consider.</p>

11

<p>PV,
Have your child also consider taking the ACT. There have been many posts reflecting how some students just do markedly better on one over the other test; maybe yours will find the ACT friendlier.</p>

12

<p>PV, one thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned is that a true safety school must be one that the student would want to attend. Furthermore, in order to know that, the student ought to scout out potential safety schools to be sure the ones on her list are in fact acceptable.</p>

<p>In addition, some people distinguish between admission safeties and financial safeties -- in the latter case, it would be a school that met the criteria that jmmom mentioned above, plus be a school the student would want to attend, plus be a school the student can afford.</p>

13

<p>There is so much to absorb. Thank you. I thought I knew what I needed to know about college. This is already much more than I learned on my own. I'm going to stick to the parent board. I have been reading the student boards since I first found this web site, and was very discouraged for my child.</p>

<p>The suggestion to take the ACT is a good one. I've heard for some students it is easier.</p>

<p>I think we are talking about private schools. My child can easily get into at least one State U, so those are not going to be a difficult choice to apply to, but I'm not sure they are the right choice for my child. I'd like to at least look into some of the private schools. </p>

<p>I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by top 75%. Does this mean a student must be in the top 25% of applicants to make a school a sure thing? What do you do if your child falls in love with a school? I know they aren't supposed to but sometimes that happens.</p>

<p>If your child has a unique skill that a particular school needs, is there a better chance of acceptance? Something the child does extremely well (like play a sport or an instrument?) but doesn't necessarily want to major in.</p>

14

<p>Even the top 25 percent is not a "sure thing" but odds are good. If you have 3-4 of those, those are your "Match" schools.</p>

<p>If your student falls in love with a school...karma. Maybe he/she will get in, maybe he/she won't. Falling in love with a school is no more of a guarantee of success than it is with a person.</p>

<p>Do file away that the private schools can often award enough financial aid that the cost is cheaper than attending a public school. (Didn't work quite that way for us but in our case the cost wasn't that much more than a high-end public with no financial aid.)</p>

15

<p>TheDad, I wouldn't be quite that pessimistic. Being in the top 25% of SAT and above the average GPA with a challenging curriculum, and (key point here) the acceptance rate is 60%+ would, in my mind, make that school a Good Bet rather than a Match (Carolyn's converted me to using the term Good Bet rather than Safety). I agree that with very selective schools (under, say a 40% acceptance rate) it's hard to consider them Good Bets, even if an applicant's stats are above the 75% level. </p>

<p>Finally, if your child's school is small, I'm guessing that you'll be able to get personalized attention from the Guidance Counselor. I'd suggest a meeting with the GC just to go over all the information you've posted here and discuss options/possibilities/etc. with him or her.</p>

16

<p>One thing to remember about those "Colleges That Change Lives" schools is how small they are, and how many people are chasing that small number of openings. Those colleges are also all of a certain type -small, liberal arts. You need to do your own research and find the schools that will change YOUR child's life. A safety is a school where your child would be at the top of the heap, not right in the middle. And some schools can NEVER be considered a safety because of their extremem popularity.</p>

17

<p>LDerochi, I see your point but I was looking more at "safe-ish" Matches than Safeties, particularly schools are more selective than might be indicated by a 60+ percent admissions rate. E.g., I think there are schools that have a 30-50 percent admissions rate that can give you fairly good odds if you're at that 75 percent mark.</p>

<p>My main point is just kind of tic with me: if you have the average stats for a school, you have a below average chance of admissions, a result of applications distributed in roughly a truncated pyramid instead of an even distribution across a range. Well, now that I think about it...the app distribution is more like a diamond shape with the top "tip" cut off and the widest part being below the median line. As I said...I wish I had a board to draw a diagram on.</p>

18

<p>If your safety has rolling admissions, and you have an acceptance in hand in the fall, it will make your life much easier.</p>

19

<p>Any chance the moderators can enable a graphing program? :) I see your point, though.</p>

<p>nngmm, good point. EA schools can accomlish the same, giving some assurances in the mid-December to mid-January time frame.</p>

20

<p>I would like to echo nngmm's point about a rolling admissions safety. DS applied Nov. 1 to Rutgers College OOS as a safety - had an acceptance in hand by Thanksgiving and was awarded merit money also. Made a world of psychological difference going into the rest of the applications process.</p>