Thank you for this detailed analysis! Warwick is definitely a good option and I just have an issue with the weather there but I’m not putting it aside just for that. McGill seems like a great option but out of the 4, it appears to have the weakest economics department and the weakest business school. Rankings are not the only factor, indeed, but I’d rather be somewhere with stronger departments in my field of study. For the requirements in US colleges, I wasn’t aware of that so thanks for pointing that out. I’m not planning to go into research anyways so it doesn’t really matter if I can’t get into a Ph.D. program right after. For UofT, do you have any idea of the class size after the first year? I’ve heard that it can be over a thousand in the first year but how about sophomore, junior and senior years?
I keep tell you this but it seems difficult for you to comprehend:
Rankings should be zero factor, especially since you’re not going to do research, because they will have zero impact on your life. The other factors discussed will impact your life more.
BTW, how would you even be able to tell which department was stronger amongst these unis?
I would bet that if you had a chance to take 1 year’s worth of classes at each of these 4 unis (and assuming you’re not looking at rankings), even if you were able to tell me which departments were stronger or weaker at the end, they would correspond not at all to whatever rankings you are looking at. You do realize that unis rank above or below each other simply depending on what criteria is being weighed, right?
Thank you for your reply! To be honest, I am just not 100% sure of McGill’ strength overall (I mean, compared to the other 3 schools) when it comes to Economics/Business/Finance. I’m not just speaking of rankings which are quite superficial for undergraduate, as @PurpleTitan pointed out :). From what I have heard, UofT is better than McGill at sending students to competitive internships in big companies.
It’s a really tough decision as none of those schools seems to stand out. They all have many pros and a bunch of cons to be taken into account.
To answer your question, I am doing Maths spé and Maths expertes! It sounds kind of weird to some of my friends who think that advanced maths are not essential to Econ or Finance but I think they are very wrong. I love maths and it’s definitely and useful skill in those fields.
For a little bit more details, I’ll give you the overall cost of these schools over 3/4 years (depending on the place):
- Warwick: ~ 95,000 €
- McGill: ~ 20,000 €
- UofT: ~ 125,000 €
- USC: ~ 200,000€
These are all in euros to make the comparison easier and they don’t take into account other expenses like housing/food/plane…
Why am I giving you these numbers while my parents told me they can afford these schools?
To be honest, I feel bad making them pay a fortune for something that may not give me the best education. At this point, my decision may also be based on how I feel about paying that much for an education. USC will definitely be the most expensive of the four, while McGill will be the most affordable. UofT and Warwick cost about the same yearly (only tuition) but Toronto will be more expensive than Coventry.
Also, do you have any idea of how difficult it is to get a working visa in these countries after I graduate? It seems like it will be hard to work in the US after graduating as I don’t have a green card…
Yes I definitely get it, it’s just hard to make my parents understand that and all they can see is their ranking… quite hard to make them understand that USC is more than just a 20-ish uni in the US, and so are schools like JHU, Rice, Northwestern, BC or BU which all lack of international recognition. In Europe, most people know about Stanford, Harvard and the MIT. Several will also know Yale, Princeton, Columbia or UCLA (but UCLA isn’t even in the top 10 or top 20 in recent national rankings!).
That’s where we see how much rankings lack of true transparency, they use criteria that sometimes are totally irrelevant - and that really messes the whole thing up!
Strong math skills are a definite plus in many areas of finance as well as in econ if you progress further in while in others (like sales or IB), it’s not that important.
@MYOS1634 may be able to tell you more but my understanding is that Desautels places well in Canada. And that honestly matters more than the rankings you’re looking at. Recruiters aren’t looking at rankings among these schools.
That is a lot to pay extra for essentially just a better college experience at USC (and probably the worst job prospects straight out of undergrad as the US will likely be the hardest for you to get a work permit in while Warwick and McGill will have the strongest brand name in your home country).
Some of these colleges are different from others. In the US, Rice and Northwestern and Ivy-equivalents if you look at broad-based alumni achievements (on par with Penn and Columbia and the other Ivies below the HYPSM tier). JHU probably would be too if they didn’t send so many alums in to the medical field. USC and probably BC would be near-Ivies, a half-tier below. That’s also where I would put the best publics like Cal, UCLA, UMich, UVa, (and Toronto and McGill). BU would be below that.
In the UK, if you go by alums who go to the City (of London; meaning top finance jobs), Warwick is on par with Oxbridge and LSE, which are on par with the Ivies.
In that sense, Warwick is akin to UCSD/UIUC/GTech in the US if you think of high finance as the industry where the UK punches above its weight and high tech as the industry where the US punches above its weight. That is, Warwick does well in its country’s dominant industry.
Espousing on spending on USC, though: it does matter how much your family has, not just what they can pay. If your family’s net worth is 8 figures (maybe also high 7), while that is a lot of money, their retirement won’t be jeopardized and so essentially you’re deciding whether to spend your inheritance now or to let it compound and get more later. Below those figures, it is a lot to pay for essentially just a better college experience.
Your parents are thinking at country-level, not US-level (continent level, if you will).
There are 3,700 colleges in the US. Being ranked anywhere within the top 375 is excellent.
To give you the scale, think of all the good “prépa” in France - at least a dozen. Add the UT’s, Dauphine, Assas, some Sorbonne programs (journalism). Add the ENS, l’X, the top 6 for business, top 10 for Engineering, the vet schools, some niche programs like Ecole du Louvre. You easily have 40-45 “colleges” in just that one “state”. Now, add Britain - add 30, easily. Add Queen’s Belfast, UCD, Trinity for Ireland. Add the university colleges and a handful of top universities in the Netherlands - 10 more. Add 1 in Malta, 2 in Romania, 3 in Greece, 5 in Poland, 2 in Slovakia, 7 in Italy. Remember, we’re only talking about really top-notch, highly selective programs. And we haven’t even started with Germany, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Portugal… you get the idea. There are 50 states. Some, like Virginia, are the equivalent of France or Britain. Some, like Alabama, are the equivalent of Malta. But if you add all 50 states, you easily have 50 absolutely elite programs and another 100 that are difficult to get into and very high-quality. So, any ranking in the 20s is… elite by any way you look at it.
The fact people in Europe haven’t heard of it means nothing. People in NYC have never heard of Louis le Grand, does it mean it’s a bad school? It’s human to think that if you know of it, it must be good, and therefore, if you don’t know of it, it mustn’t be, because how could you not know something topnotch? But if you think about it, why would you know it unless it’s part of your job to know all the topnotch programs in the world? What are the top 3 colleges in Korea, for instance - if you don’t know their names, does it mean anything about their ranking, quality, or selectivity? Because Korean kids work 14 hours a day for years to have a shot, some are even hooked to an IV by their prep classes, and their selectivity is through the roof, but once you get in you’re set for life. You don’t know them because you don’t need to know them, they’re not applicable to anything that matters to you. It means nothing about the colleges themselves.
(Note: in addition, many in Europe miss the National LACs and have never heard of Williams, Wellesley, Colgate, Middlebury, Pomona, Grinnell, Macalester, etc. which is like when Americans think studying literature at the Sorbonne is better than studying literature at Henri-IV.)
As mentioned by a poster above, USC is a notch below the Ivy+ group. In French terms, it’s kind of like being a notch below HEC but still in the Top6. Compared to the French curriculum, it will be more experiential (more case studies, more “real life” group work, focus on getting professional experience, etc). It also includes a lot of flexibility - you get to choose a lot of your classes. The BS in Economics&Data Science would be especially well-suited for you and would likely lead to very good internships. There’s also a BS in Economics&Math, which is more theoretical and usually leads to graduate study in Economics. I would strongly recommend the minor in Behavioral Economics since it’s a powerful, emerging field, but of course you could pair your Economics major with anything you’re interested in (anthropology, art history, philosophy, cognitive science, American studies, environmental science, journalism, urban planning… or applied or pure math!)
It doesn’t mean USC is worth it, financially speaking. But in terms of academic quality x"real college experience", it’s the real deal.
To give you an idea of the taxonomy and why posters don’t understand your hesitancy about McGill, McGill is seen as “the Harvard of Canada” (with Waterloo compared to MIT). UToronto and UBC round out the “top” universities in Canada. Desautels places very well.
I’m wondering whether you might be looking at graduate rankings, where the focus is on research output – because that matters very little to undergrads. Undergraduates need classes and peers that will challenge them (something you’ll find at all your choices), in an environment that helps them learn&grow academically and personally.
If you think classes won’t be difficult enough at USC or McGill, you’ll be in for a surprise. The goal will be for you to master everything (in the US, you need at least 90% mastery to get an A). It’ll often be less theoretical but it’ll be no less demanding. And you’ll cover in one semester what would be expected in a year in some programs (that’s why you only take 4 or 5 classes per semester: each class period requires 2 1/2 to 3 hours of work. You don’t have to spend that much time on them, you manage your own time, but then you’ll pay the price - freshmen often think that they’ll do like in HS and “wing it” because they’re smart, and if for some it works, for most first midterms are a rude awakening.)
All 4 universities are very, very good. Your parents can afford all 4. So, now, which is your “best fit”?
wrt Warwick: email the Dept. about how Brexit has impacted their graduates’ prospects since some major banks/headquarters have left the City or relocated workers to Amsterdam, Frankfurt, and Paris.
I go back and forth on USC vs McGill and Warwick. USC costs the most but would provide its undergrads with the most resources (McGill and Warwick are relatively underfunded publics compared to USC though still much better than a typical French uni). No point considering Toronto. McGill is an equal peer and Desautels + being a lot cheaper puts it clearly over Toronto. They’re all about equal in global reputation just a bit below the Ivy/Oxbridge/equivalent/grandes ecoles tier (Warwick maybe a bit lower overall but punching above its weight in your area of interest). The City (of London) may be hurting after Brexit but it’s still much easier to apply for and interview for jobs in Europe when you’re actually in Europe (especially in a reputable European program). USC would have the tightest alumni network but that network would be heavily concentrated in CA. McGill (and Toronto, but no point considering Toronto) would have some of the brightest Canadians (probably only a handful of the smartest Canadians attend Ivies/equivalents in the US so a lot would end up at Waterloo/McGill/Toronto) but also kids who struggle. In that sense, they are like a typical continental European uni (like ETH Zurich which would have some of the brightest Europeans but also kids who struggle so high variability). USC and Warwick more compressed (few, besides the handful who get the big USC scholarships, would turn down Ivies/Oxbridge/equivalents for USC/Warwick, but Warwick keeps the level of its student body high with high entry requirements and USC is quite selective these days). Because of that, the environment at McGill is probably the most intellectual of the 3, but you may not care for that, in which case, USC (or Warwick) would be for you (smart kids but mostly pre-professsionally focused).
1)McGill --3 years & lowest COA
2) Warwick–3 years & 2nd lowest COA
3) Toronto–4 years & easy to get work permits in Canada
Eliminate USC–most expensive, 4 years, & work permits are hard to obtain in US
Keep costs low & undergraduate term to 3 years, then earn a masters degree with the extra year & savings.
This is another thread, for your parents lol -note the poster got a big scholarship, so not the same situation as yours, but this is to help your parents evaluate how rankings work in the US by seeing how students hesitate between USC and universitiesthey may know. For what it’s worth I think McGill is your best choice but USC is not some cut-rate directional.
In the US you’d qualify for something called OPT. You’d have to email the Office of International Students to ask whether your degree would qualify you for 12 months or 27.
In Canada, your degree counts toward time toward permanent residency and work permits are easy to get.
Wanted to add that life doesn’t end after undergrad. So if going to USC for undergrad means you can’t afford an elite masters (or are constrained financially when looking at masters/MBA programs), don’t go to USC. You could get something like the USC experience at an MBA program at USC’s level (again, just outside the T15) or above.
I’m starting to agree with @MYOS1634 that McGill for undergrad probably makes the most sense.
@MYOS1634 @PurpleTitan @Publisher
First of all, thank you for your great replies, they definitely help!
I will try to answer to all of them in one, instead of doing multiple replies 
Today, I had three phone calls with different people that know these universities:
-
First one: one of my dad’s friends who studied at McGill as a Canadian citizen (he now lives in France). It was great to have his point of view on both McGill and UofT as he knows several graduates from both schools.
At the moment, two of his children are studying at McGill and they really enjoy their time in Montréal (indeed, less convenient with covid but still a great experience academically and socially).
His thoughts on UofT were very similar to yours - and don’t get me wrong I knew that your advising was really good! Toronto is a great city but it’s true that students there kind of lack a social scene, as UofT is very rigorous.
At UofT, which I don’t totally cross off my list for the moment, I would have great opportunities. I was admitted to the Vic One program Chambers stream and having talked to students it seems to be an outstanding academic resource.
This person also knew Warwick and USC. His daughter and he visited Warwick a few years ago and they didn’t have a very enjoyable experience. Indeed, things may have changed but I’m not sure that Warwick>McGill or Toronto. For USC, he mentioned things identical to what the majority of you pointed out - great atmosphere, amazing campus, but is it worth it? It’s hard to say. -
Second one: a French guy that recently graduated from USC and then HEC Paris. He is now starting to work. From his perspective, USC is an amazing institution and he spent the best years of his life there.
From what I understand, USC provides the best student experience of the four, which is exactly what most of you were saying previously. Although the cost may be an issue at some point, USC brings lots to its graduates and I think it should be taken into account.
Now the real question is, is it worth it?
According to him, definitely. But to be honest, it is hard to decide whether I should go to McGill, have a totally different experience, but pay less OR go to USC, gain a wonderful network, enjoy four amazing years, and get a similar diploma.
I was also wondering how important grade deflation is in Canada? Apparently, it is hard to get into a great master’s right after graduating because UofT’s and McGill’s grade deflation seriously impacts the GPA. -
Finally, third one: After a little bit of research online, I found out that USC department of Economics’ chair is French. I thought that it would be great to contact him, and I was right!
This person gave me a wonderful insight into what the department of Economics brings to his students and how USC in general helps the students (again, academically and socially - with clubs, student organizations…). Perhaps, this experience alone may justify the additional cost
In simple terms, I really like USC and from what I’ve heard it seems like USC graduates are very well-regarded by employers. Now, I know that it’s hard to justify the additional cost and I totally understand that McGill (or UofT and Warwick) will teach great material and prepare me for a great career.
Basically, my heart wants me to go to USC but my brain tells me that McGill may be a better option.
It’s extremely hard to make a decision so I thank you all for helping me choose the best option of the four. The French chair of USC Economics told me to email the FA office telling them my issue: my parents can afford it and I am not eligible for financial aid, however, I have other, less expensive, options in Canada. Do you think it could be a way to get some aid?
Thankss
It doesn’t hurt to try. You lose nothing by asking.
As for whether the USC experience would be worth the extra cost, I’d say it depends on your family wealth, which we won’t pry in to. But my rule of thumb is that if your parents have to stretch financially to pay, it’s likely not worth it but if it’s a matter of receiving it now or as an inheritance later, then it is up to you (the difference can be a pretty sum when compounded over decades—let it compound for 4 decades and it could fund a large portion to all of your retirement just by itself, depending on how the market does). As for grade deflation at the top Canadian unis, sure. But American programs are aware of the rigor of the top Canadian unis as well. A top GPA from McGill/Toronto/Waterloo really means something. Also, for something like the MBA (several years after graduation), GPA won’t be one of the most important factors.
However, European programs (definitely UK ones) seem to have much more rigid cut-offs.
Congratulations on doing all that research!
Sounds like USC would be a great fit for you and sounds like you’re trying to discourage yourself from choosing it. If you present your dilemma to your parents, what do they say?
It doesn’t exactly work like what the Chair said, you can’t call USC with McGill’s costs and ask them to match because they’d really need to see costs for a US peer (ie., if you were admitted to Emory or CMC), not a Canadian Public. Some universities “match” peers’ offers, but only peers’ (or rivals’).
HOWEVER he gave you good advice: if you’re sure it’s your #1, you can contact them and say they’re your top choice but your parents are pushing for McGill for financial reasons, so you’re wondering whether there’s any way they (USC) can find a way to make a gesture so the choice becomes more palatable for your parents (if you were given nothing, list “scholarship+work study” to show you’re willing to be flexible…)? Or: if you were given a small scholarship, you can ask whether they could increase the scholarship by $…,000… < amount you adjust relative to the scholarship already offered, such as $1,000 for a $5,000 scholarship, $3,000 for a $10,000 scholarship…
Sorry for this really late reply…
I think I’ve narrowed down my decision to USC and Mcgill. I really like UofT but it would be stupid not to go to McGill instead (less expensive, probably a better experience, three years only). For Warwick, I’ll keep it as my firm choice but probably go elsewhere.
Quick reminder:
USC - 50,000€ per year tuition only (in total, probably around 300,000€ over 4 years)
McGill - 7,000€ per year tuition only (in total, probably around 100,000€ over 3+ years)
Money isn’t a big issue but I don’t want to pay 3 times more for something that is not worth it. @MYOS1634 @PurpleTitan Would you say that USC is worth it? I’m speaking in “general” terms so academics, reputation, student experience, outcomes…
If you are a French citizen and what you are looking for is to spend some time in the US to get a US experience, the cheapest path is to go to McGill at the French rate, and after you graduate find a VIE opportunity in the US.
Ask your parents how they feel.
The experience IS different. Whether that difference is worth the price difference is subjective and linked to you and your parents’ wishes, expectations, sense of “value”… McGill’s classes are hard, probably harder than USC’s, with less support, but the professors or the students’ aren’t “better”. 92% freshmen return for their second year at McGill, 96-97% at USC. At USC, it’s very hard to get in, but hard to fail out. At McGill, it’s relatively easy to get in (for Canadians and Americans) but hard to graduate from, especially with high grades.
However, how do you quantify it? California v. Quebec, Montreal v.Los Angeles, residential university v. “urban/commuter” university, sport teams to cheer for v. well, not that good teams (or they had a bad season recently), football&basketball v. hockey, support&career services&alumni network&career fairs v. less extensive support (but still better than most European public universities’.)
From your posts, it seems clear you’re leaning toward USC but feel guilty about the cost, so talking with your parents may make things clearer for you.
McGill will be closer to what you know in Europe, an elite school in a city. USC will be more like the American college experience you might have read about. It’s all intangible, subjective evaluations. When you entered middle school, did you parents choose the private school with a unique program, or the good local public school? It’s the same type of evaluation, except this time it encompasses every aspect of your life since you’ll live there, make friends there, find sources of entertainment and distraction there, discover a new culture there, create a new community there.
You still have 2 weeks to decide.
… And after USC, you can work your OPT in California but still go to Quebec and work there, even attend McGill for grad school (in fact, McGill’s grad school costs for French citizens are even lower than for undergrad).
Or you can work in Quebec for a few years, get Canadian citizenship, and try to go work in the US on WHV.
So, your decision will be all-encompassing, but you will still be able to pivot :).
I went to USC. Academically and career-wise, it’s not worth 3x more than McGill. But if you can afford it, and you really feel like USC is a better fit, then go to USC.
Legal drinking age 21 v. 18 