<p>yeah, this the academic reputation of a school is a lot more important for people studying things like business than it is for engineering. going to a very reputable business school can give you a big leg up than for people attending some no name sschool</p>
<p>I am definitely not going to do an MBA. I think that I am just not that kind of person for that task. It would probably be very boring since my Econ class in 12th grade was rather boring. I'll do my Physics and Engineering, invent something, patent it, get a company to manufacture the product, and I get 10% of all sales. It's all good =P.</p>
<p>Carl, Tuition doesn't change. Tuition is only the cost that you pay to take classes. The number of classes is directly proportional to the amount of tuition you pay. Since I am going to PCC (Pasadena City College, a community college), the tuition here is $26/unit. Average for a CC. But I received a BOG (Board of Governors) Grant, as about 99% of the people who go there do, and it is a fee waiver which waives all of my tuition and health fees =P. So yeah. I'm waiting for my financial aid package to see how much I would need to pay out-of-pocket for books, bus toll, and food. Hopefully very little or nothing at all. But if there is an amount I need to pay...it's going to go on a loan haha.</p>
<p>dude, everyone is having the same mind: invent something, patent it and rip all the benefits.
if things are so easy most scientists are billionaires now.</p>
<p>The decision to take science versus engineering is always a difficult one. Evidently, there is much crossover in the fields. Tradionally, engineering majors have done better because their skills were more applicable in post-World War II growth period. The years between 1945 and 1965 were probably the most economic prosperous and engineers benefited greatly because of the infrastructure development going on during these years. Another reason though was that few people went to university or became engineers. In short, engineers got the pick of top jobs because of such great demand. Again, because of infrastructure, they were very well poised to take big and well-paying jobs leading the corporations that built our modern society. </p>
<p>In the late 1960's, everyhting changed. The baby boomer children entered univeristy and more graduates permeated every field including engineering and science. There were also reports that urged young people to become engineers and scientists because there was a lack of people in these fields. These reports were proved wrong and the market was horribly flooded. By the late 1970's and early 1980's layoffs were en vogue and many engineers turned managers were let go from companies that promised never to lay off. The new reality started in the 1980's where you could not count on lifetime employment like in the 1950's and 1960's. </p>
<p>In my view, the market for engineers is horribly saturated. We often hear of engineers working for Home Depot and the likes.</p>
<p>I believe in this day and age that double major in Math and Comp. Sci or Math and Physics is the best science undergrad. This is a good lead in to fields like Supply Chain Management and Logistics which puts you at the heart of your employer's business operations and in which you cantake a key management position. Also, the big consulting firms like AD Little and McKinsey hire Math majors for their logical thinking processes and their IT skills. It is true that hire engineers as well, but in my view Math + CS or Math + Physics offer more choice today. </p>
<p>If you are interested in making money then simply, science does not pay. I would suggest taking a double major in Math and Economics with a concentration in Financial Economics or Financial Engineering. </p>
<p>This is my humble opinion and I mean no disrespect to other opinions.</p>
<p>Toronto_guy, </p>
<p>I hope you didn't put C.S. on a higher level then engineering because if you don't know this already, let me tell you that:</p>
<p>C.S. job market in America is suffering due to outsourcing. Many, many qualified and American workers have been laid off. It is not a good situation for the IT industry in America right now. Frankly, I feel bad for those C.S. majors in college because they're in for a harsh world of layoffs when they get out.</p>
<p>Note that when I speak of C.S. majors, I speak fo the "general" C.S. major. I'm not talking about people who have graduated from MIT, Berkeley, Stanford - I'm talking about the majority of C.S. majors (not the elite).</p>
<p>I don't put CS above engineering. I do think that today, having a double major, and especially, Double Honours in Mathematics and Computer Science or DH in Math + Physics is more valuable than engineering. Of course, as you state, where you go to school is VI and I do agree with you on that point. It is only MHO.</p>
<p>
[quote]
hope you didn't put C.S. on a higher level then engineering because if you don't know this already, let me tell you that:</p>
<p>C.S. job market in America is suffering due to outsourcing. Many, many qualified and American workers have been laid off. It is not a good situation for the IT industry in America right now. Frankly, I feel bad for those C.S. majors in college because they're in for a harsh world of layoffs when they get out.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think computer science guys still have it pretty good, despite outsourcing. As good as they had it in the late 90's during the dotcom boom? Of course not. But still pretty good.</p>
<p>And quite frankly, I think that how good it was during the dotcom boom is part of the 'real' problem. Computer guys are still during pretty well. It's only relative to the halcyon days of the boom that things look bad. </p>
<p>Yes, there is outsourcing and you could say that that is 'stealing' some computer jobs. But the fact is, plenty of computer jobs are not being outsourced. Think of it this way. Microsoft employs tens of thousands of American computer engineers. Yes, Microsoft also employs some Indians, but the fact is, Microsoft still employs many thousands of American computer engineers. If it was really true that all computer jobs could really be outsourced to India, then Microsoft is being stupid by maintaining all those American computer guys on the payroll, and Microsoft should fire them all immediately. But not only is Microsoft not firing them all, they are still hiring many more Americans. So I guess that means that Microsoft is being really stupid.</p>
<p>Bill</a> Gates agrees with sakky :)</p>
<p>Hmmmm, that was a rather interesting discussion. Though, I doubt I would do CS, Math, or Econ. I just like the three physical sciences and the engineering fields that I outlined before. I have to use what I like and make the optimal choice out of them. I would like some advice as to the best and most versatile combination of the outline majors (Physics, Astro, Planetary, ME, AE, EE, and CompE). I will probably not be able to let go a science field or an engineering field...</p>
<p>
[quote]
In my view, the market for engineers is horribly saturated. We often hear of engineers working for Home Depot and the likes.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can't agree with that. The fact is, engineering degrees still pull in the highest starting salary of any other bachelor's degree. If it was really true that the market for engineers was horribly saturated, then why are all these companies throwing away money by paying these big starting salaries to engineers? Are all these companies being stupid? </p>
<p>Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that engineering is the greatest thing in the world. But I would say that engineers are better off than a lot of other people out there. If engineering is so saturated, then what's better? Film Studies? Art history? There are some engineers working at Home Depot, but I would surmise that there are lot more Art History guys working at Home Depot.</p>
<p>c.s. is still a fine degree to get. the stories for outsourcing although real, are horribly exaggerated. you have to keep this in perspective, as during the 80's and dot com boom C.S. majors and ECE majors were making as much as primary care doctors on teh average coming out of college, so now that these majors make 50-60k str8 out of college it is 'comparatively' bad, but still the best amongst all undergrad programs.</p>
<p>Which would be the best out of these for working with computers, making programs for robotics, etc.: EE, CompE, or CS?</p>
<p>To reinforce what I've been saying, Microsoft plans to add more than 3000 jobs in the Seattle/Puget Sound area, bolstering the 28,000 employees that Microsoft already has just in that one part of the United States (and Microsoft also has many other offices around the US). Obviously not all of those employees are computer engineers, but thousands of them are. If computer outsourcing really is so easy to do, then why doesn't Microsoft today simply fire all its thousands of American employees and replace them all with Indians? Yet not only is Microsoft not doing that, it's actually ADDING American employees. Is Microsoft being stupid? </p>
<p><em>bump bump bump</em></p>
<p>Microsoft is one company. There are many other C.S. majors out there and Microsoft can't hire them all. Stop forcing sarcasm by repeatedly quoting "Is Microsoft stupid" and try and to bring up other companies to validate your point.</p>
<p>I believe Toronto is misinformed if he considers the market for engineers saturated. The two countries that are currently the US's greatest economic threat, China and India, graduate 15% to 20% of their students in engineering. In the US this figure is below 10%. The backbone of any prospering economy is innovation. When this declines, the standard of living will do likewise.</p>
<p>Xcron: with regards to robotics...</p>
<p>Electrical Engineering: design circuits and electrical components that make up the physical control systems</p>
<p>Computer Engineering: Kind of a specialized EE focusing more towards computational EE (digital logic) vs. analog circuits. But these days the line is blurring as almost everything is going digital logic (including EE). You'd have to look at a school's details to determine the exact differences between its EE and CE programs (sometimes combined as ECE).</p>
<p>Computer Science: write the software that controls the hardware; might need to know some basics regarding the physical hardware... but it's the EE/CE's job to make sure you can interface to it. More concerned with the theory or the actual decision/operation logic and less with the physical components.</p>
<p>All three are required for a successful robot. Which do you like most? If you're undecided, you might need to take some classes in all 2-3 areas to see which you like better.</p>
<p>ASIDE:
I'm a C.S. graduate of Rice University and doing just fine. :)
You don't have to be from Berkeley or MIT to have an excellent CS department and come away with a valuable education employers want.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Microsoft is one company. There are many other C.S. majors out there and Microsoft can't hire them all. Stop forcing sarcasm by repeatedly quoting "Is Microsoft stupid" and try and to bring up other companies to validate your point.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And did you read the Businessweek article that I showed on the other thread?</p>
<p>Not to sound like a broken record, but why are Yahoo and Google poaching away all these American computer engineers away from Microsoft? Why don't they fire all their American engineers today and instead hire a whole bunch of Indians? Not only are they not doing that, they are actually INCREASING the number of American computer engineers they are hiring. Why? Are Yahoo and Google stupid? </p>
<p>Take a gander at all the engineering and IT openings at the American offices at Google. Ask yourself why does Google have all these engineering job openings in their American offices? </p>
<p>{Note that these aren't the number of openings, but rather the number of opening ** types **. For example, Google has 44 types of Software Engineering opening positions in Mountain View, but that doesn't mean they want to hire just 44 people. They are going to hire far far more than 44 people for these jobs, because multiple people are going to be hired for one type of job. It's like a new Walmart that just opened that says they want to hire one type of cashier - but obviously they are going to hire many people within that one type.} </p>
<p>Google, Silicon Valley (Mountain View):</p>
<p>Google Manhattan office:</p>
<p>Google Southern California office</p>
<p><a href="http://www.google.com/support/jobs/bin/topic.py?%5B/url%5D">http://www.google.com/support/jobs/bin/topic.py?</a>
dep<em>id=1054&loc</em>id=1118
<a href="http://www.google.com/support/jobs/bin/topic.py?dep_id=1060&loc_id=1118%5B/url%5D">http://www.google.com/support/jobs/bin/topic.py?dep_id=1060&loc_id=1118</a></p>
<p>Google Washington (Kirkland) office</p>
<p>And that's just 4 American office locations of Google. Google has other American office locations. </p>
<p>Or consider this article that just came out today about tech hiring in the Bay Area, and in particular, this quote:</p>
<p>"The 6,500 Bay Area-based positions listed on the IT job board Dice.com are up 46 percent from last year and 184 percent from two years ago, according to Dice.com Chief Executive Officer Scott Melland. </p>
<p>Nationwide, this sector of jobs is up 53 percent so far this year and 180 percent from two years ago on the Web site. "</p>
<p>So why are all these companies advertising all these Bay Area tech jobs on Dice? Are these companies stupid too? If outsourcing really is so easy to do, then there really would be absolutely zero computer jobs in the US, because every company would have already replaced them with Indians. So why don't they do that? Instead of doing that, these companies are actually INCREASING hiring of American computer engineers. Why? </p>
<p>What is really happening is that certain computer jobs are going away to India, in particular the grunt low-level coding and certain high-level tasks that don't require any interaction with other business units. I perfectly agree that those computer jobs do not have a bright future in the US. However, what is replacing them are higher-level computer jobs that require greater interfacing with other business functions. For example, technology consulting - where you help companies determine how to use software to optimize their processes- is strong. Indians are obviously very good at knowing how to create software, but the next questions are what software to create and why it should be created, and that requires close interaction and proximity with customers.</p>
<p>Sakky is right.</p>
<p>Investment banks and hedge funds are losing to Google and Microsoft for top computer science graduates from top schools.</p>
<p>wrprice, would I be just as able to get a job in that field with ME??? I'm pretty sure ME's are used in anything that is ever created nowadays...</p>
<p>I probably should do Physics + ME, sadly the units cap is at 216 at UCLA =(. I wonder if I can petition for a high enough cap to be able to do 2 majors and a minor or just 3 majors...I would need to talk it over with a counselor after transferring...<em>sigh</em></p>
<p>I still don't know which major I should complete prep courses for at PCC....should I do the classes for ME or Physics? I want to double major in those two...but I don't know which I should use when transferring...because afterwards, I don't know how likely it will be for me to be allowed to double major in the other major. I'm guessing that if I do physics, it will be very hard to be allowed to double in ME since ME is such an impacted major...so I should probably do ME and then get Phys as my double...that will probably be easier right??? Since Phys is not impacted at all and the average GPA of transfer admits to L&S is like 3.55 while it is 3.77 for HSSEAS. Sheesh!</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone who is still giving their input while this argument is going on in this thread.... o_O</p>