<p>Exactly. Why care about the average stats of those admitted, when a good number of those aren't attending? You have to be competitive matched against those who actually attend.</p>
<p>Because most people want to get into medical school. That is why you worry about the statistics of those admitted (which should go without saying...) I would worry about having a student body with what you "perceive" as your ideal stats as a distant second to the aforementioned...</p>
<p>Because NYU can admit all the 38's they want, but if none of them end up matriculating, they have to take a bunch of 32's, too, which HMS doesn't.</p>
<p>which HMS doesn't.</p>
<p>I would guess the accepted range would be similar for both schools considering they have the same median acceptance MCAT...</p>
<p>I don't understand why this is so difficult.</p>
<p>A 32 who looks at the MSAR numbers will conclude that he's way below NYU's median and shouldn't bother applying. A 32 who looks at the USN numbers will understand that he's right in range for the students that eventually end up going there and that he should apply. The USN applicant is correct; the MSAR one is incorrect.</p>
<p>First of all, all of the discussion so far has assumed that the accepted pools of Harvard and NYU are of the same quality. They're not. </p>
<p>For one thing, Harvard accepts 200 students to fill its class while NYU accepts 460 or whatever. Since the median at both places is a 35, that means Harvard only accepts 100 students who scored less than 35 (probably the best 100 sub-35 scorers in the country) while NYU has to accept 230 of such students while Harvard accepts 100 students who scored 35+ (again, probably the best 100 35+ scorers in the country) while NYU has to accept 230. Just by math alone, you know that there are students who will get accepted to NYU that won't get into Harvard.</p>
<p>Schools like Penn or Harvard can easily fill their classes with 39+ scorers if they take an approach like WashU. They choose not to because they know they can already get any high-scorer they admit. Therefore, they take 32's because those 32's are freakin' amazing in some other areas of their applications. The 32's admitted to Harvard are not the same as the 32's admitted to NYU. NYU takes 32's because those 32's will fill their class. It's their target group. Harvard takes 32's because those 32's have exceptional life experience. </p>
<p>NYU is a 32-average school that wants to have an average of 35. Harvard is a 35-average school that DOESN'T want to have an average of 37. If it wanted to, it can just steal all of WashU's admits. But, it takes a less numbers-centered approach. It doesn't mean Harvard is less selective than NYU or WashU because we know it can get any applicant that it wants.</p>
<p>This all goes back to the fact that admitted stats can only reveal so much but more importantly to the fact that you will never know that Harvard accepts 200 students while NYU accepts 400+ because the MSAR lacks acceptance numbers; it only has matriculated numbers, which Harvard and NYU are probably similar in.</p>
<p>Norcalguy, I actually know nothing about NYU (didn't apply there) so if they accept 2x what Harvard does then this could have some implications for the argument that matriculated data is important. It probably does have some importance. However, I still say that when choosing to which schools to apply I would look at accepted data.</p>
<p>Here is a hypothetical:</p>
<p>Let's say NYU did accept 200. Harvard also accepts 200.</p>
<p>Let's say there classes are both 100.</p>
<p>Let's say they accept the EXACT same 200 students</p>
<p>Let's say that the median at both schools is thus the same (35)</p>
<p>Let's say the top 100 of this same 200 pool goes to Harvard and the bottom 100 goes to NYU.</p>
<p>Let's say that this leaves NYU's matriculated students at a 32 median and Harvard's matriculated students at a 37 median MCAT.</p>
<p>This is exaggerated to make my point but I hope it is clear. In this example the "matriculated stats" do not matter when it comes to acceptance. A 32 MCAT would have the same chance, here, of getting into NYU or Harvard.</p>
<p>uvajack, i'm sorry but your example is completely absurd and here's why....</p>
<p>
[quote]
Let's say NYU did accept 200. Harvard also accepts 200.</p>
<p>Let's say there classes are both 100.</p>
<p>Let's say they accept the EXACT same 200 students</p>
<p>Let's say that the median at both schools is thus the same (35)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i'm with you until here but then this:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Let's say the top 100 of this same 200 pool goes to Harvard and the bottom 100 goes to NYU.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>is insane!</p>
<p>why on earth would the bottom 100 students chose NYU over Harvard????</p>
<p>What would more likely happen is (assuming, as you did, that harvard has the same yield as NYU):</p>
<p>~180 students chose either harvard or a better school over NYU and NYU ends up taking 80 students off the wait list....</p>
<p>so you see, by looking at the stats of those who matriculated you are seeing who eventually got off the waitlist....your example makes believe waitlists don't exist when in actuality they are dipped into pretty heavily especially by schools like NYU who accept only top applicants at first to inflate their stats.</p>
<p>Seems like the next USNEWS med school guide is coming out august 1st Barnes & Noble.com</a> - Books: U.S. News Ultimate Guide to Medical Schools, by Staff of U.S.News & World Report, Paperback ....aren't you supposed to have already picked schools and submitted your AMCAS by them if you hope to get it in early? I think going to barnes and taking a look at the 2006 rankings is what i'm going to end up doing since i'm definitely not paying for 2 year old information.</p>
<p>Not sure why the book takes so long if you're right. USN releases their new rankings every March/April, as they did this year. The online rankings have everything you need and cost $16.</p>
<p>There's no reason to buy the book since the information is redundant with what is available online. Buy the online subscription to the US News Grad School rankings.</p>
<p>is insane!</p>
<p>This is exaggerated to make my point but I hope it is clear. In this example the "matriculated stats" do not matter when it comes to acceptance. A 32 MCAT would have the same chance, here, of getting into NYU or Harvard.</p>
<p>~180 students chose either harvard or a better school over NYU and NYU ends up taking 80 students off the wait list.... ....NYU who accept only top applicants at first to inflate their stats.</p>
<p>I THINK (do not pretend to know) that this sounds very, very absurd. NYU makes up there class 80% by waitlist? They only use traditional acceptances to inflate their stats? Well, I do not have evidence to contradict it, can you provide evidence to support it?</p>
<p>I really do not wish to argue this anymore. Yes, I ignored waitlist data because we are speaking about the original acceptances. Waitlist would have some effect, no doubt, but it would not invalidate my point... Unless NYU really does accept their initial students only to "inflate their stats" and subsequently fills the vast majority of it with waitlist applicants (seems ridiculous to me, show evidence or let's end this)...</p>
<p>But, I can see everyone else's point about why matriculated data is important as well... I think they both are with accepted data just being more relevant to choosing which schools to apply.</p>
<p>Bottom line for the OP, though is:
[quote]
everyone else's point
[/quote]
</p>
<p>lol, i need to recompose myself after such insight ;)</p>
<p>Haha . :D</p>
<p>
[quote]
NYU makes up there class 80% by waitlist?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i was clearly responding to your hypothetical with a hypothetical....i mean...if everyone nyu accepted was also accepted to harvard then 80% probably wouldn't be too far off ....but of course the situation you set up was outlandish and as a result i exaggerated to make my point</p>
<p>...and for the love of god learn how to use block quotes....</p>
<p>as for the US News thing....they've clearly outsmarted me....I'm sure the reason they delay the print version is so diligent people would be forced to buy it online rather than go look at it in a bookstore.</p>
<p>To the OP: use your own logic to pick which point you think is more valid, bluedevilmike has been here longer than I have and many posters are lining up with him. However, applying to medical school is not a joke, you should decide if you want:</p>
<p>1) the accepted stats (if you wish to actually get in [slightly disregarding larger acceptance pools/waitlist etc.])</p>
<p>2) what the class actually turns out to be POST acceptances. In other words, this data may not help you pick schools based on chances of acceptance but it will give you an idea if you will "fit in" with the matriculated class...</p>
<p>My point is extremely valid, so please, if you say it is not be clear so the OP, and any others with concerns, can reach a conclusion of their own.</p>
<p>i was clearly responding to your hypothetical with a hypothetical....i mean...if everyone nyu accepted was also accepted to harvard then 80% probably wouldn't be too far off ....but of course the situation you set up was outlandish and as a result i exaggerated to make my point</p>
<p>My exaggeration was similar to what you are claiming, namely that the NYU matriculates have stats much less than Harvard matriculates even though their accepted medians are the same. Your point, NYU accepts 80% of their class off the waitlist is a conclusion that is, not only extremely exaggerated, but ridiculous.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In other words, this data may not help you pick schools based on chances of acceptance but it will give you an idea if you will "fit in" with the matriculated class...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>u r so completely missing the point its getting painful....it has nothing to do with fitting in! Being "accepted" and getting in off the wait list both have the same result at the end which is having the chance to go to that med school. Of course your chances of getting in off the waitlist should factor into your decision of which schools to apply to! </p>
<p>
[quote]
My exaggeration was similar to what you are claiming, namely that the NYU matriculates have stats much less than Harvard matriculates even though their accepted medians are the same.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>you missed the point of discrepancy which is that I am saying that the lower matriculation stats are due to people they pull off the waitlist while you're claiming that somehow those with lower stats who also got accepted to better schools would for some strange reason all not chose the best school to which they were admitted.</p>
<p>Yes, obviously waitlist acceptances and "normal" acceptances do have the same consequences, I hope the opposite or that is not what you gathered from my opinion... Your point is SIMPLY THIS:</p>
<p>NYU's acceptance data cannot be relied upon because their initial acceptances are, as you so eloquently put it, to raise their statistics... Their matriculates for the MOST PART come off their waitlist and thus everyone should look at matriculated data in order to decide AT WHERE THEY WILL GET OFF THE WAITLIST SINCE EVERYONE WHO MATRICULATES INTO SCHOOLS LIKE NYU OBVIOUSLY CAME OFF OF THE WAITLIST ---> NOT THE ORIGINAL ACCEPTED BUNCH. I will quit arguing. OP: if this is what you also think after using your own logic, go with it.</p>