<p>I wouldn’t consider Point Park or Pace as academically strong either…</p>
<p>CCPA Roosevelt is also not very challenging academically. </p>
<p>I’m not aware of any BFA Musical Theater program that has rigorous academics. It’s a completely different path. And as with most programs, the rigor is in the arts not the books.</p>
<p>@beenthereMTdad - depending on the school I would say the academic classes the BFA students have to take can be rigorous. Many universities still have students take core classes outside of the arts that are requirements to graduate. Some students take extras if time allows. Each program is so different that’s why we all say research the different programs to see what you want out of your training. </p>
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<p>I don’t agree. Many BFA programs require some academic coursework…some BFAs require more academics than other programs and so it varies. In terms of the academic courses, they tend to be more rigorous in colleges that are academically selective in order to be admitted (for regular students, non-BFA ones). So, for instance, if a BFA in MT student attends a school like NYU , U of Michigan, Emerson, U of Miami, or Elon (and others of course), they will be taking some academic courses and these schools are selective academically in terms of admission (for all students, not just BFA ones) and so these courses can be rigorous indeed. Obviously the BFA conservatory training courses are rigorous in a different way! </p>
<p>My own child went to NYU/Tisch for MT and had to balance rigorous conservatory classes with challenging academic classes which involved writing many papers and so on. She enjoyed the MT training but also enjoyed the academic challenges. </p>
<p>I have a relative who attended a BFA in recent years at one of the academically challenging schools mentioned in this discussion, and got great grades in the BFA training classes, but wasn’t as keen about the academic ones and while she has graduated the program, she hasn’t fully earned the diploma because she did not pass enough of the academic credits needed. </p>
<p>There is a presumption here that you cannot be challenged academically at schools with lower academic admissions standards. I am a true believer that you can challenge yourself anywhere you go. If you want to take more challenging academics, work with the school and its advisor to take honors courses and higher level courses. Find classes that will interest and challenge you. It will require effort on your part to find more intensive classes, but you can do it if you try.
Also, do not assume that a student is less academic because they chose to attend a program at a less academically selective school. Some students would prefer to be at a Texas State or an Otterbein or an OCU because they know they are getting great training AND they may qualify for academic merit where they might not qualify for as much at an NYU or Carnegie Mellon. Some students may prefer the MT curriculum at a less academically selective school. Some may prefer the cost. Some may prefer the location. Again, it does not necessarily mean they are not interested in academics. There may not be as many students interested in rigorous academics in these programs, but there will always be some. Find them. Befriend them if that is important to you.
Know you can get a great education anywhere you go as long as you make the effort. Some MT schools may not have the academic prestige of some other institutions, but if you are getting the training you want and the academics you want at a place you love, at a price you can afford it is a great choice for you. Do not let anyone make you feel your school is not a great choice if it was the best place for you to attend, whatever your reason. . There are plenty of examples on CC of kids turning down CMU in favor of Texas State or forgoing NYU to attend Otterbein. Do what fits best for you. And remember, you can get a great education wherever you go if you put forth the effort.</p>
<p>Amen vvnstar!!</p>
<p>vvnstar, I totally agree with your post! In fact, a vast majority of the BFA in MT programs are NOT located within what are considered more academically selective universities. Choosing a BFA program, in my opinion, means choosing the program first and choosing the university within which it is located, second (but still important consideration!). I had a client, for example, who got into NYU/Tisch and Northwestern (among other programs) that are academically selective, but chose to attend Texas State as he preferred that MT program. And if your kid is a very good academic student who is striving to attend a BFA in MT program, you have to realize that most of these are not in the most academically selective colleges. That just is the way it is. My own daughter has always been a very good academic student. Still, she applied to BOCO and Ithaca, as two examples, that are not that hard to get into academically speaking and to CMU where the audition counts close to 90% of admission and there are very little academics in the program. She picked the MT program that best met her search criteria first. </p>
<p>That said, she preferred, if it could happen, to attend a BFA program that had some academics and where the academics were more challenging and a strong overall student body. That was one of many reasons NYU appealed to HER. </p>
<p>But I agree that no matter where you go to school, you can create your own challenges. My children went to rural public schools and created academic accommodations to meet their learning needs and cravings for as much challenge as possible. They did not follow the normal course in our public schools. So, I do believe you can get a great education anywhere if you are motivated to create challenges for yourself. Prestige is not important in this regard. Ultimately, it is the student him/herself that is the basis of the success they will have in school and beyond. </p>
<p>My earlier post was in response to Beentheredad who stated that academics are not rigorous in BFA in MT programs and at some schools they are. And as you say, even at schools where they are not, you can find ways to be academically challenged (Honors courses and the like). </p>
<p>That said, I have met many students who really do NOT want academics with their BFA training classes, or as little as possible and the less challenging ones the better. So, there are schools that fit that sort of search criteria better than others. BOCO comes to mind, for example. There are students who really crave a university known for challenging academics and motivated student bodies and certain schools can offer that. But again, you can create challenges for yourself wherever you go! What you can’t do, however, is…if you want academics with your training, and that is important to you, then going to BOCO, CMU, or UArts for example, might not fit that criteria as well as going to Penn State, UMich, Emerson, Elon, or NYU. I’m not talking of the rigor but simply the existence of academic requirements beyond some minimal amount.</p>
<p>On another note however- I have always felt there is merit to the idea of a respected university - no matter WHAT major. Imagine a kid who goes to CMU…trains, gets work, and then decides that a life in the theater just isn’t for them. (little stability, frequent rejection etc… are factors in ANY performer’s life, and I can imagine it getting old), So said kid decides to go get a different type of job, and on their resume it says they graduated from CMU. That HAS to be a good thing, it’s an incredibly well respected university- and let’s face it, the VAST majority of (non theater) employers would have NO idea that a kid who goes to CMU for theater took very few classes outside of theater, or even that CMU is a great theater school (far more well known nationally for science, engineering etc). Another kid has the same situation, but their resume says “______________” (fill in the blank not challenging university- I am DELIBERATELY not naming names to avoid any level of insult) Which is more impressive? In the path with my D one of our “rules” was, if you wouldn’t want to go to that college w/o theater (b/c of academics, or location, facilities, whatever) you shouldn’t want to go there because of theater. That cut a number of schools off her list. Two schools on her final list were Brown and Northwestern, neither of which offer a BFA. My contention was, having that education opens doors (different doors than top BFA programs, but still) In the end, she was accepted by one (NU) which offers GREAT training, but her heart was with the idea of a BFA. As has been said so many times- everyone should go with THEIR path, THEIR choices, (and not have to take the crap we took from well meaning friends saying “You’re turning down Northwestern!”) but don’t discount the idea of quality as a whole… one never knows what the future holds, and a degree from a respected university is NEVER a bad thing</p>
<p>toowonderful, I had a student turn down Brown and Stanford because she preferred the BFA at NYU/Tisch. </p>
<p>Agree that the general public has no clue how competitive these BFA programs are to get into. I recall people saying things to me about my D during her college admissions process…“she applied to Penn State? Ithaca? of course she’ll get in!” and they just assumed that because academically speaking, these were safety schools for her, but they had no idea how competitive these schools are to get into for the BFA in MT!</p>
<p>In college selection, I’d go with fit first, but you are right that in the general public, certain college names ring a bell and certain ones don’t. But the flip side is in the theater industry, certain college programs ring a bell and certain ones don’t. It is sorta common that there are very well regarded BFA programs that the theater industry knows about and yet the colleges in which these program exist, are not well known by the general public. </p>
<p>There are a lot of applicants out there who really only care about conservatory training and very little about academics. For those students, a BFA program in a college that requires academics and in a student body that is selective academically speaking, likely is not a good fit. For those who crave some academics with their BFA, certain schools fit that better. BUT in the end, it is so hard to get into BFA in MT programs, you have to give in a bit on these things. So, even though my D preferred a school like NYU, she applied to schools that were not like it academically such as BOCO, because she needed to apply to several BFAs to increase her odds and picking the conservatory part of the program is still a big priority for anyone because it consumes a larger majority of your time in college than the academic piece. It is not like picking out a regular college. You really have to like the PROGRAM first and foremost and then ideally, really like the college itself. For example, when my other D applied to college, she was picking out the college much more than picking out the department she might major in. In fact, she went to Brown and it was not strong in her academic major, but she created challenges in that area by taking courses at RISD, a summer program at Harvard and study abroad through Syracuse, all in her major field: architecture. But with a BA, it is not like her major consumed the bulk of her studies, like it does with a BFA. Then, she specialized in graduate school. Then it was about picking the right program, not so much the right university, much like her sister’s BFA admissions process. For example, my D chose to go to her second grad school program at Berkeley, even though she was admitted to Stanford, because the program at Berkeley was better suited for her specialty. </p>
<p>@vvnstar, I think you captured what needed to be said perfectly.</p>
<p>The only thing that I haven’t heard anyone say yet is that what you think you want with respect to academic rigor as a HS senior looking for a college program can change quite a bit once you hit the ground. My daughter thought she wanted a school that also had a strong academics. I think she believed it at the time or knew darn well that’s what we wanted to hear. Possibly both. So she set out to find herself an MT program in a school like that and got into several of them so she had her pick.</p>
<p>Today, if she never had to take another academic class that sucks up her precious and very expensive credit hours so she could instead study more theatre, she would do cartwheels from Times Square to Washington Square. She wasn’t ready to say that when she picked her school though I’m certain she would have picked the same school regardless. It is interesting how that as a priority changed once she was actually on the ground or brave enough to articulate it to her parents.</p>
<p>Maybe if we were all being completely honest, it wasn’t so much about the academic classes, it was more on what @toowonderful touched on earlier. We were (and still are) a bit stuck when it comes to caring about the whole academic reputation thing for exactly the point that toowonderful made - a degree from a school that people outside of theatre respect. I suppose we also thought that if there was an academic filter somewhere in the admissions process, it might mean she was more likely to have peers that were also academically driven. I don’t know if the latter is true or not in comparison to other schools with lesser academic reputations, I can only see that she does have those kind of peers where she is. May well have been the case elsewhere as well. </p>
<p>Could be the most financially impractical place to get stuck but it’s where we got stuck with her. Got stuck yet again this year with my son too as his list was also heavy on the schools with strong academic reputations which meant merit money would be harder to come by. It’s just how we roll but I fully respect the choices that many of my good friends have made that put other considerations and priorities front and center. In the end, I’d like to think we are all getting it right or at least trying hard to. </p>
<p>Each student (and perhaps parents) have different priorities in college selection. For me, I don’t care that much about the reputation of the school. My kids cared more about an adequate level of challenge and fit. In terms of BFA programs, at least in the theater industry, it’s more about the reputation of the program than the name of the college itself, anyway. </p>
<p>Sometimes, people can get caught up in prestige, when in the end, it really is about best fit. Back when my older D was accepted to colleges, and was narrowing her list of accepted schools to do revisits at before making a final decision, she knocked University of Pennsylvania (an Ivy) out, even though she also was one of 100 Ben Franklin Scholars selected there, because she did not feel it was a good fit and was considering two very good schools, though “lesser ranked” (non-Ivies) instead, which she liked more than Penn. Some might consider that crazy but we didn’t. I’m a firm advocate of best fit, not highest ranked. </p>
<p>Halflokum, your D’s story is common in that kids can change their preferences once on the ground in college. My D happened to really like academic classes. But not everyone does. I already told the story of my relative who got a BFA in recent years who got into one of the more academically competitive BFA programs talked about here, but was not into the academics once in college and did not fare well in them and didn’t obtain the required credits to actually earn the diploma, though completed the BFA program. She was always a strong student but just wasn’t into the academic classes. </p>
<p>But for kids who know (or think they know!) that they would like some academics, or more rigorous ones, or none at all, these are things that can help narrow the college search for theater students since there is quite a variation in this aspect among the various programs out there. </p>
<p>Excellent point @halflokum - we are all doing the best we can, preparing for multiple futures and hoping for good things :)</p>
<p>@soozieVT, are you repackaging what I wrote because I don’t see anything in my words that suggests being caught up in prestige (a word I didn’t use nor imply) or that my common daughter is ignoring her academics. Pretty sure I didn’t say either of those things as well as pretty sure you did already say that your daughters’ cared about adequate level of challenge as by the way, does mine. I’m a bit baffled. </p>
<p>halflokum, no you did not say a word about prestige. I was making comments overall. The first half of my post was not directed toward you. In fact, there was discussion earlier by someone else that having a degree from a well respected university can be a positive thing (no doubt true).</p>
<p>The part where I wrote your name (just the third paragraph of my post), I was discussing your good point where you brought up how a kid can change their preferences once in college (an example for some might be change of major, for instance!). Of course your D is not ignoring academics. I’m not sure where you thought I would think that whatsoever. I was saying that MY relative was ignoring academics in HER BFA program at an academically selective university. In your D’s case, she is an excellent student and is simply saying she may have chosen to have less academics now that she is in college and experiencing them, even though she does well in them! </p>
<p>So, in sum, NOPE you did not say either of those things and I never thought you did. </p>
<p>But yes, your D, and mine, do care about adequate level of challenge, which was one thing that attracted them to their particular BFA programs, I believe. </p>
<p>I realize that when a post follows another post in a thread, there may be an assumption that the post is directed toward the previous post, but that is not necessarily the case because it is a discussion whereby people join in at various times, not in real time. For me, if I am responding specifically to someone, I may use their name (like I did in the third paragraph of my post which that paragraph specifically was responding to you…and even left a larger space after the previous paragraphs to denote changing direction to address a specific post or member, whereas the previous paragraphs were not directed at anyone), or use quote boxes. Otherwise, I am just adding to the discussion at hand. </p>
<p>I was the one who discussed the merit of “prestige” in college. I fully support the idea that ANY college can offer learning, challenge and growth. As a teacher, I have told parents for years that reputation is NOT the only thing they should look at when examining a school. “If a kid is looking for a challenge, any school can be challenging, if a kid is looking to party, any school can be a party school”. To take that into the BFA world, there in no doubt in my mind that a student who is serious about studying can gain skills in virtually any credible BFA program, and that being accepted to the finest program in the world (whatever you think that is) will not help a kid who isn’t willing to work. And yet, back to my original point- there are college names that open doors in the BFA world, and there are college names that open doors in the “regular” world. It would seem the “safest” bet would be to do the best you can to be on either/both lists, but think about it and know what your plan is before you start</p>
<p>I understand the concern about the prestige of the school your child graduates from. But rather than being too concerned about the school name, I would be more interested in the connections and networking opportunities your school provides. You may be surprised how well connected some of these schools are that you may not have heard of. I know I was. Even these “lesser academic” schools have many of their own connections outside of the MT world. For example, our D is at OCU. She is in a leadership program there and had the opportunity to meet and have breakfast with Justice Sandra Day O’Connor among other notable leaders this year. And I’m sure many of the other lesser known schools offer similar, unique opportunities on their campuses. Find out what those things are and encourage your student to get involved.</p>
<p>As far as the value of a degree from these less academic schools should your child have a change in interests, I have several thoughts: </p>
<ol>
<li> If they like the school and wish to stay but change majors or career paths, make sure they do the things needed to get a job in their new chosen field. Seek out leadership opportunities. Intern. Network in their new chosen field. Get good grades. Study abroad. Participate in community service. Do all the things you need to do to stand out as a job applicant.</li>
<li> If the school really is not appropriate for what they want to now study, determine what steps they need to take to achieve their new goal. If they are deciding to pursue a career where they will need to go on to graduate school, it may be best to finish their undergraduate degree where they are to get it done in the most efficient and cost-effective manner, and then really focus on where they want to attend graduate school. Be aware they may need to check requirements for grad programs – do they want an MBA? Most MBA programs require college level calculus. Medical professions? They may need to add sciences. Teaching? Obviously will need education classes. Changing goals and majors will not be the end of the world. Not many people I went to college with are still in the same job or company they were with right out of college. It will be OK if this happens - even at a less academically intense school.</li>
<li> If they really feel their current school does not have what they need, allow them to transfer. But have a clear understanding of when they are expected to graduate, who will be paying for any loss of scholarships or extra semesters, etc.</li>
</ol>
<p>I am not going to tell you a degree from Texas State is equivalent to one from Northwestern. But I do think a Texas State degree has value no matter what the major. And if you decide you want to live in Texas, it may actually be more beneficial because of all the people from that area you will know. my point is: Embrace all of these schools for their unique opportunities. Really get to know what they have to offer. And make the most of what is available there. You can and will get a great education if you seek it out, no matter what your school and your major.</p>
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<p>I truly believe this too. It really is about the person, more than the school they came from when it comes to eventual success.
<p>More than the prestige factor, what I cared about for my kids (and what I imagine is true for a great number of parents) is that they were happy with their chosen school and that they found it to be a great fit once there and that they got the most out of the experience that they could. I didn't really care which school they attended, the name of it, etc. I feel very lucky that both of my kids really loved their undergraduate schools and after the fact, I feel it is safe to say that they each found their chosen schools to be a great fit for THEM. These schools are not the end all and be all and not right for each student. When you find the right fit and thrive and are happy at your school, that is what really matters, at least for me on the parent end of it. </p>
<p>Prestige isn't everything if the fit is not quite right. I can share a personal story on that. My daughter went to graduate school at MIT, at the time, ranked #2 in graduate schools of architecture (her field). She got into many other so called prestigious graduate schools, including Ivy League, etc. at the time, and many of the top ranked grad programs in architecture. She liked MIT a lot. But she found she did not love studio, which is a core part of the 3.5 year grad program (kinda like studio training in a BFA!) and liked the other courses, in her interest area of sustainability. But you can't not take studio. That is not an option. She realized she didn't want to be the designer but wanted to work on the sustainable aspects of the building design. Even though she was in this so called prestigious program/university, she opted to leave the program part way through to go to graduate school in a more specialized field of sustainable design / building technology. At the time she thought people would think she was nuts to give up this chance at one of the most prestigious graduate programs in her field, but it didn't matter if she wasn't happy with that course of study. In the end, she got into the handful of very competitive graduate programs in sustainable design and graduated with a degree in that and landed her dream job. Happiness and fit trumped prestige. Admittedly, her graduate degree is from a top program in her field of sustainable building design, that had a 5% acceptance rate. But she did leave a top program in her original field to pursue a better fit. Name is not everything.</p><p>Once again I love your post @vvnstar.</p>
<p>I fought very hard against caring about prestige for prestige’s sake in my kids’ processes because to me it wasn’t the reason I wanted to be the deciding factor unless the reason for the prestige had relevance to their situation and needs. A school can be prestigious because it has a fantastic alumni network and/or really great sports teams. Or because it is a leading research institution. Or an endowment which let’s everyone attend who wants to go for peanuts. Or because it has a line out the door of 4.0, 2400 SAT students that they reject. Or because a bunch of famous people went there. Or the campus is beautiful and on the beach. Or their MT program only takes 5 of each sex and is known for really being strong in a particular area you care about. Etc.</p>
<p>Or (and this is my favorite), it just IS the school that you see yourself at and would feel proud to attend. </p>
<p>What I didn’t want is for either of my kids to get caught up in prestige for prestige’s sake and we went 2 for 2 in that not happening. Both had reasons specific to their needs for the schools they picked among which included in their cases that they wanted to be challenged academically and in my daughter’s case, also pushed artistically. They are both attending or about to attend the two top universities in the entire world*. I know I know… beyond fabulous.</p>
<ul>
<li>assumes a world consisting of identical twins and many years of inbreeding.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>^^ * THEIR identical twins. Too late to edit.</p>