<p>My D will be taking classes throughout her college life where the grading will be largely subjective- she is an English major. She has run into the first professor in which she and the professor do not seem to agree on the quality of the work. I am not taking sides these things happen in life. It is a good life lesson since this will not be the last time she will be in a subordinate position and will need to learn how to deal with this. She has asked for my advice however and I am not a shrinking violet in that area.</p>
<p>I told her to talk to the professor and express your concern but do not whine or criticize. Ask for concrete areas in which the professor believes you need to improve- and make sure you work on those areas. Let the professor know you want to do well and are willing to work at it.</p>
<p>Leave out that you think the professor favors males and does not like liberal girls.</p>
<p>Be prepared sometimes you and a professor will not see eye to eye. A C+ from one prof may well be graded an B+ by another it happens. This is a Public Speaking class by the way.</p>
<p>Have you or your kids run into this? Any other points she can use?</p>
<p>I think you have given solid advice. Because it is a public speaking class, she might consider getting feedback from a student in the class that she respects on the quality of her presentations and what can be done to improve.</p>
<p>There’s a lot to learn about public speaking and it’s easy to ding someone for a variety of reasons. There is the speech itself - did the opening catch the attention of the audience, was it well-developed, did the conclusion do a good job in wrapping up. There are the physical aspects - eye contact (which implies memorization), appropriate use of gestures, voice variety, connecting with the audience and then there’s the vocal delivery.</p>
<p>You can find materials for public speaking on the web in videos and text form and there are books on the subject. There’s an old guideline of spending 30 to 60 minutes of work for each minute you speak. Practicing in front of a mirror or with a video-camera or a friend to critique you may be helpful.</p>
<p>Use ratemyprofessor.com to see what others think about the professor before signing up for the class. Also sign up for courses early. My son mentioned to me that one of his friends was thinking of dropping a class because the professor was so bad and that it affected his grade. I checked the enrollments and the other professor teaching the course had his course full while my son’s friend’s course had a bunch of open slots. Basically those that signed up early got the better professor.</p>
<p>My daughter was always the best English student in her class from 4th grade through the end of high school. She often had some conflict with her teachers, but it always got resolved in favor of letting her do what she wanted, because she was so far beyond whatever they were doing with their classes.</p>
<p>That served her very poorly when she got to college and was no longer effortlessly the best. She struggled some her first year, trying to understand why she was suddenly getting Bs rather than As on her papers. Her teachers tried to help her, but she wasn’t accustomed to listening that hard to what her teachers had to say. Recently, however, as a senior, she re-read some of her early college papers, and said, “I should have paid a lot more attention to what my TA was telling me. Everything he said was right. When I read these papers now, it’s easy to see where their weaknesses were, and what I needed to do, but I didn’t see it then.”</p>
<p>Thank you
BC- my D did use ratemyprofessor- the teacher she wanted to take was booked by the time D could register. She is a freshman. My D has always had luck with teachers even when other students had complaints so she decided to enroll in the class anyway. RMP had some pretty negative remarks about this current professor most had to do with her grading.
This is all part of the learning curve. My D also is taking a language class where RMP has also given the professor poor rating but my D thinks she is great and is doing well.</p>
<p>I once had a class where the professor put copies of “A” papers on reserve at the library. It was an eye-opener, they were all convoluted heaps of jargon. I realized I didn’t even want to try to write papers like that. I relaxed and with much less effort continued to get the B’s I’d been getting all along. Sometimes the professor’s standards may not agree with yours, there’s not much you can do except drop the class. Luckily most of my professors liked my writing style; I got specific comments about it from them about it. (Cogent and concise is what I’d been taught in high school.) The only aggravating thing about that particular professor was that my MOM had gotten an A in his class!</p>
<p>My D1 is more of a math and science person. She doesn’t do as well in humanities. She enjoys women studies and art history courses, but she doesn’t like the fact those classes could be so subjective. At the same time, she manages to pull off A/A- in those courses. She figures out what the professor wants and gives it to him. She goes to office hours (play date), shows interest…I think some may call it brown nosing, but I am sure she gets a lot out of it too. When she writes a paper, she’ll show it to the TA or professor beforehand, get their feedback before she turns it in. It takes more time and planning, but the result has always been good.</p>
<p>Insert “Religious Studies” for “Art History” and sign my name to oldfort’s post. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto.</p>
<p>Take advantage of every tool available to her. Don’t grub for grades. Don’t complain about grades. Concentrate on doing her best work for THAT professor using that professor’s standards. Understand that she doesn’t have to agree with those standards. (In fact, IMO she should feel free to disagree with those standards. Privately and politely. We’re not raising sheep.)</p>
<p>Sports analogy : </p>
<p>Coach to Ump: That was a strike.</p>
<p>Umpire: I agree it may have been a strike yesterday. It may very well be a strike again tomorrow . But today it is a ball.</p>
<p>As someone who has to grade sometimes qualitative work…</p>
<ol>
<li><p>There is subjectivity and then there is subjectivity. Good profs use a rubric and can specifically point out where something falls short. Those that use a more ‘gestalt’ approach I think rely on less defensible factors. Even without a rubric, a good professor should be able to give extensive feedback on why something was graded the way it was. It’s important to seek out that information if its not obvious on the returned work. </p></li>
<li><p>Students who don’t like grades they get interpret in something subjective, too often assume the professor is wrong and thus their grade should have been higher. The professor has not only insight into the material that the students do not, but also the perspective of seeing a million cases/reports/essays over the years (or possibly in one sitting with a large class). Whereas the student has only their work and their self-serving biases (obviously students working hard think they have put in their best work…how can it not be an A?). </p></li>
<li><p>Some students will take the above bias another step and develop a belief around some kind of general bias the prof has. They’ll compare notes with say two people next to them-- not a representative sample- and reach some broad conclusion. And lots of research shows we are very good at seeking out and remembering data that confirms our existing bias. While no doubt professors can have biases like that, I think its way overstated. They have much much much better and easier methods to assign grades than the contemplate the writer and mark according to who they are in some category. What would they get from doing so? I assure you there is LOTS of variance in grading so its not difficult to find a grade distribution without having to resort to personal preferences.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Most professors grade blind just to avoid unknown bias. Or they give the grading to someone else. Speaking of which, do your students even know who does the grading of their assignments? Even Harvard will outsource grading! Professors won’t tell you if you don’t ask. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Ratemyprofessor is pretty useless. Find real data from real students. Either find released results by the school itself (most schools do teaching evaluations by students every term but only some schools make that data available) and if that doens’t work, ask around and talk to more senior students. I have won teaching awards, my formal evaluations by students are usually in the 4.3-4.5 range on a 1-5 scale, I get frequent written comments in my formal evaluations that say things like “wow, best professor I ever had!” Yet on ratemyprofessor rating doesn’t reflect that at all. No relationship between the two. I know colleagues, including my husband, who say the same thing. Because its a very biased and small sample that goes on there. Anyone can post about anyone, people can post as much as they like.</p></li>
<li><p>Visiting the prof. It valuable for both the prof and student to get to know one another. It should be very helpful for getting insight into what’s needed, how to fix things, how to improve, and how to really know the material. My door is always open and students know they can seek me out and I’m shocked by how few students take advantage of it. I encourage my daughter to do this when she has challenges. Its a free resource, it really helps, so use it!! </p></li>
</ol>
<p>As for biasing my grading, no. I grade blind. And those students who think they are savvy sucking up the professor, well the more obvious ones at least are really obvious! After all these years, you can tell the difference between the student making up excuses to visit you, asking for extra reading or whatever, from those who really need help. I guess they think it works because they do it to all the professors and get good grades (not realizing that its likely their studying that got those grades). But the reality is they are creating a bad, not a good impression.</p>
<p>Ratemyprofessor is very useful. You may just not see it that way. Perhaps you’re more into ratemystudents.com.</p>
<p>The professors that I’ve talked to that I worked with or used to work with state that it’s accurate in their cases. With my son’s courses it has been pretty accurate from what he tells me. He tutors a lot of math/science/engineering students and gets a feel for the professors from the students. We were looking at one RMP entry last night for a professor. One of his friends was considering dropping the course. The comments in RMP were that he doesn’t know how to teach, that his class went from 25 students to 4, lots of other stuff. There can be professors that are stars in research that don’t know how to teach or place it lower on their priority list.</p>
<p>I think ratemyprofessor can be one of many tools. I looked up an old friend of mine. Many students complained that she was often late to class. That was always my biggest complaint about her too! She was so reliably late, I often lied about when we were to meet.</p>
<p>There are idiots that post on ratemyprofessors. There are some highly motivated idiots , too. And then there are genuinely helpful folks. </p>
<p>I know D has looked at it. I have , also. I think you can get some warnings about “bad” profs and some suggestions of great prof’s. Useful data can be found on past grading trends. (“Never gives A’s in writing Seminars”.) You just have to understand it is an un-filtered medium and you shouldn’t put that much stock in what you read there. Use what you do get as conversation starters with recent students.</p>
<p>I was an English major. I remember the professor who gave me my first B+ on a paper in the subject. I went to see him and asked what I could have done differently. His response, "It’s hard to say. " [I am quoting him verbatim. It was over 30 years ago, but it is burned into memory! ] I asked to see examples of A papers. His response, “That wouldn’t be fair.”</p>
<p>After asking a few more such questions, I left. I knew why I got that grade–which was not a bad grade at my school at that time, it was just that I was accustomed to receiving one of the very few As–and it had nothing to do with my work. It had everything to do with being intellectually threatening for a guy in his first job, and with skipping class occasionally and not sucking up to him.</p>
<p>The only sure fire method of getting good grades in subjective areas is the following, although I personally never did it:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>When I was a grad student at the U of C, it was stunning to see the degree to which favoritism and sexism played into grading. The only thing we did that was graded blind was the master’s exam. Imagine the consternation when MAT candidates and females who did not assiduously flirt with the professors and had the nerve to talk in class and other outcasts who routinely were given the dreaded B+ (meaning don’t let into the PhD program) received the top grades and some of the favored boys received Bs!</p>
<p>I find, in general, those with something to complain about are more likely to be heard than those who have nothing to complain about. Just keep that in mind when you are reading ratings.</p>
<p>Another thing, part of growing up, part of life, part of a career, part of everything is learning to deal with professors/spouses/bosses/children like the one in OP. If she wants to be successful in her life and career she’d do well to figure out how to get on such people’s good side. I’m not going to try and figure out who is at fault, because that doesn’t matter and won’t help in the solution. I have no better advice but for her to not only figure out what it is he wants but how she could deliver it. Sometimes these decisions can be influenced by showing effort.</p>
<p>Thanks, starbright. That was a great, informative post!</p>
<p>At my children’s college, ratemyprofessor.com is not considered reliable. The college has an internal course evaluation data base with more controls that has near-universal participation, and that students can (and do) access. As a result, ratemyprofessor tends to attract input mainly from those with an axe to grind, or partisans, and maybe random others. It’s not balanced or useful.</p>
<p>If you have ever tried to grade English papers, you would probably have more sympathy for the teachers here. I have done it at various points, and it’s difficult as all heck. Mostly I have worked with college-bound (good college-bound) seniors at good high schools, and the big problem isn’t whether I agree or disagree with them, it’s mostly that they have trouble producing work that is coherent and thought-through enough, and has enough actual ideas, to be worthy of agreement or disagreement. This experience colors my view of these sorts of threads a lot. When I read a decently presented paper that I disagreed with violently, that was practically an automatic A unless I thought that the author was simply ignoring big chunks of required material that were inconsistent with her thesis.</p>
<p>I think you gave your D sound advice. There certainly is subjectivity in a lot of grading - especially in the type of course you stated. In some classes it’s worse - TAs grade some papers and there can be a subjectivity difference from TA to TA within the same class and the profs usually always support whatever the TAs conclude (that’s ‘usually’ - some profs will listen to the student and be more objective on their TAs’ conclusions).</p>
<p>Short of the advice you gave her on discussing this with the prof to seek guidance in how to improve (i.e. not grade grub), and doing what she can to select profs where she has some feedback as to how they are on ratemyprof dot com (although I agree that as with any ‘ratings’ site, those with negative things to say are more likely to post) or better yet, through students who have already have the prof, she’ll just need to adjust to the different levels of expectations that some colleges and profs have at this level.</p>
<p>We have run the data at our school and instituted public ratings to complete with ratemyprofessor because of the small correlation. I can’t speak to others’ anecdotal experience but as a scientist, I prefer real data over anecdotes. </p>
<p>We collect two sources of evaluation data at our university: one for the business school another for the university. Both involve psychometrically valid evaluation criteria, a long list of criteria about both the course and the professor. The data is collected for every course and from every student in the course,from almost the entire class, and its collected once per student per course, and its anonymous (students are even assured the results are not available until after grades are submitted). </p>
<p>Compare that data to ratemyprofessor data (or ratemydoctor or any one of those sites): its completed by a very biased (positive or negative) assortment of self-selected students motivated to go to the site to begin with. Moreover there is no quality check whatsoever. A disgruntled student could provide 20 negative comments or an infatuated student could provide 20 positive comments. But wait there is more! A professor (or his or her colleagues) could also rate themselves!! Many times over even! </p>
<p>What ratemyprofessor is good for is pushing for MORE valid and public evaluation of professors. Indeed, I am a very strong proponent of professor evaluations and there is no decent excuse not to make those evaluations public to students. Given its well known that ratemyprofessor is not a valid means, schools can and should be pushing to replace it with more objective and valid measurement. I strongly encouraged our school to do just that. We had always collected evaluations (and professors REALLY care about how they do and their promotions are influenced by those ratings). But why not make them available to students? How can they justify not doing so? Ratemyprofessor is finally a good incentive to come up with something that students can trust.</p>
<p>I certainly agree that data is a good thing–and I completely agree that “ratemyprofessor” is wholly unreliable for the reasons stated–but that does not make anecdotes such as mine false. </p>
<p>Here’s some data for you. The program took in a masters class that was 1:1 male/female. The PhD class drawn from that master’s class was 5:1 male/female. Unless you believe that an unusally high number of the female students were stupid and/or untalented, there was something going on. (The fact that there was precisely ONE female professor in the English dept at that time might be a clue.)</p>
<p>Oh, and there was no rating of professors or courses of any kind at that time.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the input. My D’s school has all their institutional data pass word protected. That annoys me- I guess my D could request the password and ask to see the various surveys they keep.
I also do not know if my D is correct in her assessment but as I said this is a life lesson that may be as important to any class. How to deal with someone who is your superior and is not ecstatic about your work- even though you think they are without cause.</p>
<p>Consolation- gender bias was a real problem which has hopefully abated. My wife and I were discussing our D’s situation and my wife mentioned that her only C in college came from a prof who told her women should not major in his subject. She had 2 classes with him received a C and a B. The male wrestlers received A’s. She majored in the subject in grad school and graduated with a 4.0.</p>
</p>
And then there are genuinely helpful folks. </p>
] I asked to see examples of A papers. His response, “That wouldn’t be fair.”</p>