<p>Looking for good advice on something about which I know nothing.
A friend of my kids' (grew up together since the age of 3) has been putting herself through undergrad in psychology. She has a 4.0 and will graduate next Dec, after 3.5 years.</p>
<p>She is looking at graduate programs in either Clinical Psychology or Counseling. She is concerned about money, since she has none. (None from the family either). She also say she found out it takes the average student 7 years to go through a Clinical Psychology PhD program. ??
Any thoughts are appreciated...</p>
<p>The better programs in clin psych are “funded” – in other words, students pay nothing. They get free tuition and even a stipend by helping the profs with their research, teaching intro-level classes, and being a TA.</p>
<p>Her best bet is to work for a few years in a research position – the major hospitals have these. I see you’re in PA, so she should check out the Philadelphia hospitals. </p>
<p>This is the route my son has taken. He’s got his applications in right now and we’re keeping our fingers crossed.</p>
<p>When I did it, yes there was funding, but school wasn’t “free”. We got stipends (traineeship or research assistantship funding, etc, and then worked at the VA and was paid) but still had to pay for tuition, books, housing, etc. Student loans were necessary to fill the gap between what the stipends paid.</p>
<p>These days, many of the better programs will not take students directly out of college. They will want them to have a year or more of experience, so what veryhapapy is describing is a good idea. Doesnt mean this girl shouldnt apply. She should jsut be prepared. Clinical psych programs are very hard to get into. Good luck!</p>
<p>She might want to check into MSW programs and see if those will give her what she wants. Saying this as someone with a doctorate in psychology. Except for the bragging rights in being called “Dr.,” my experience has been that MSWs and doctorate holders in clinical psychology often can do the same type of work, but employers may prefer to hire social workers because they can hire them for cheaper.</p>
<p>Managed care has made it very difficult for people in private practice, if that’s what your friend is considering.</p>
<p>The competition for doctoral programs in clinical psychology is very difficult. When I went, it was harder to get into those programs than to get into medical school. I believe that there also are more graduates than there are jobs.</p>
<p>It also is correct that grad schools in psych prefer to admit students who’ve had some kind of post college life experience in any field. Wisdom, maturity and having lots of life experience is a plus in that field.</p>
<p>Not to be disrespectful, but as NSM knows, there are significant diffrences between social work vs clinical psych training programs, and if the OPs daus friend wants to do research or testing, keep aiming for that Ph.D. Totally agree that private practice is no picnic, but its still quite enjoyable (she says as she writes her umpteenth appeal letter for denial of services by an insurance company…)</p>
<p>Some programs are fully funded, and there were opportunities to earn extra (I did testing for local school, rewrote a grant, etc). Agree with all the other comments.</p>
<p>Some MSWs are successful in private practice, but many end up in a low paying jobs in a nursing home, etc. I encouraged a young friend to go the educ route with goal of becoming a Dean at a college. We had discussed being a GC at HS level, but working with college students has been far more satisfying for her. She did her MA while working at this college, and continues taking classes for free. This specialty was not available 20 or 30 years ago.</p>
<p>My daughter is currently going through the application/interview process (fingers crossed) for doctoral programs in School Psych and it’s been an eye opening experience for me. School Psych isn’t quite as competitive as Clinical Psych but is still very competitive. One POI that my daughter has applied to will be accepting one funded student this year. Frightening odds.</p>
<p>I’ve been lurking on student doctor network (sdn) and have learned alot from the questions asked by kids going through the app process and getting advice from current grad students. You may want to check out that site - it was recommended to me by someone here. On sdn I read recently that one clinical psych program received over 600 apps for 8 to 10 spots this year.</p>
<p>Just a few thoughts that might help because they’re things I didn’t know as DD went into this:
-Many kids do apply directly from undergrad to Ph.D. programs and are accepted if they are strong enough applicants. However, that said, it’s so competitive that even strong applicants sometimes don’t get accepted. When DD asked her mentor prof about which is viewed in a better light - straight from undergrad or with experience or masters, his response was that it really depends on the prof and program you’re applying to. The prof told her that he prefers someone straight from undergrad because as long as they’re bright, he can mold and teach that person whereas someone older with more experiences or a masters may come in with preconceived notions I guess.</p>
<p>-Encourage the girl to apply to a good mix of schools just as is done here for undergrads. I read an article recently in a grad Psych publication that DD gets at home that said the reason many kids get rejected in this process is that they don’t spread their net wide enough. If you apply to all tippy top programs in the most desirable places to live, you are more likely to get rejected than if you also apply to programs that meet your research interests but maybe have lower average incoming scores or a location that many wouldn’t choose. It’s about leveraging your odds of acceptance.</p>
<p>-The application process for doctoral psych programs is costly. Most clinical psych applicants apply to 10-15 programs; some apply to as many as 20. Strong applicants could receive as many as 7 interviews. It gets expensive so if money is a concern, she should beginning saving for that. Many of the kids posting on sdn talk of having to wait another week to get paid before they can send off another app.</p>
<p>-Most fully funded programs now do a tuition waiver in addition to stipend; some require you to pay the mandatory fees. This varies by program.</p>
<p>-Average completion time varies by program but you will find that info on the program websites. Most programs are minimum 5 years - 4 school and 1 year of internship.</p>
<p>-Lastly, you mention that she’s graduating in December. The doctoral programs that I’m aware of all only take applications to begin in the Fall. Master’s programs generally accept in the spring and fall.</p>
<p>A long-time friend has a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology plus twenty-five years of experience. He did everything “by the book” including a three-year post-doctoral internship in NYC. He gets by with a full-time teaching job, plus part-time public (hospital) work and a part time private practice. His wife also works. He has no plans to retire … ever. It’s not a career path for the weak of heart.</p>
<p>My dear friend from college turned in his clinical psych dissertation on Wednesday. The strongest candidates aren’t those with the highest GPA (though that doesn’t hurt), but those with the best research experience and best plans for future research. I’m pretty sure his program took him 7 years, but it might have been 8.</p>
<p>Hanna is right that the strongest candidates aren’t necessarily those with the highest GPA but it amazes me how many kids there are out there who have the total package (top grades, strong GRE scores, years of research experience) along with interesting and relevant community work. I think back to when I was in college and don’t remember kids having or creating those types of opportunities - either that or I was just oblivious to it.</p>
<p>DD is one of several undergrads in her profs lab currently. The only difference on paper between their stats is slight twists in research experiences and interests. Grades and scores all comparably strong.</p>
<p>Thank you all for your comments. Her plans are to graduate in Dec 2010 and apply to grad school for Fall 2011. Her advisor already told her to cast a wide net and apply to no less than 10 schools. She doesn’t want social work. She wants either Clinical Psychology or Counseling Psychology. She really wants Clinical but is now hesitate due to the length of time. She thinks the 7 year “average” is 7 years of full time school. This can’t be right.
Magnolia Mom - from what you say the school is 4 years and internship is 5 years. Are you licensed after that?
I would hate to see her “settle” for Counseling when Clinical is what she wants.</p>
<p>Very Happy - yes she is in college here in PA and will be looking at PA programs plus others on the East Coast.</p>
<p>Academic training and practicums do typically take about 4 years, year round. Then there is s 1 year internship and then, depending on her specialty, she might need to do a 1 or 2 yr postdoc. Licensure depends on the state. Some are letting the students take the first part of the national exam before they go off on internship. Thats a nice option b/c that way you don’t forget all the stuff learned in class. It is a lot of work, but worthwhile.</p>
<p>Typically a Ph.D. program in clinical psychology requires 4 years of coursework and 1 year of full-time internship. The “typical” 7 year length you referenced probably reflects the fact that many students do not finish dissertations in a timely manner and require more time to get it done after internship. After receiving your degree you are employable, but not yet eligible for licensure in most states which require post-doctoral supervised hours to be eligible for licensure. The licensure requirements vary from state to state and are rapidly changing with many states moving to allow predoctoral supervision hours to count toward licensure.</p>
<p>I think her advisor is giving her good advice to apply to both clinical and counseling programs - counseling programs will be somewhat less competitive for admission than clinical programs (particularly funded clinical programs).</p>
<p>Justamom,
What will your dau be doing after she graduates? If she can get a job in a research lab, that will really help her application in the fall.</p>
<p>reading these boards, I’ve been thinking how much in need we are of good psychologists! It really is both an art and a science, a very rewarding field, worth going the distance for, for sure.</p>
<p>Lots of good info/advice here. One option that hasn’t been mentioned is the Psy.D. The Ph.D. is a research degree that provides the individual with the most career options; whereas the PsyD is primarily a practice degree. These programs (e.g., Mass School of Professional Psychology) are often free-standing. They can be quite expensive, and rarely have tuition waivers or stipends. Regardless of whether one is applying to a Ph.D. or Psy.D. program , it is important to make sure that it is APA-approved. Also, it’s a good idea to find out what kind of track record they have getting students placed in appropriate internships.</p>
<p>Some Psy.Ds seem to be having particular difficulty getting a coveted and hard-to-get internship setting. Particularly if a student wants and APA approved internship site, several settings simply will not consider Psy.D.s Also many Psy.D. programs are very expensive, and because the faculty are often not funded by research grants, there is limited funding available for students (ah- just saw that you mentioned that last $$$ issue in your post above!)</p>
<p>FWIW, here’s the mean aggregate admissions data for APA-accredited Clinical, Counseling, and School programs (excluding Argosy and Alliant)
</p>
<p>Also, I’m a school psych PhD applicant this year as well! So far, six interview invites, one rejection, and a bunch more that I’m waiting on. Fingers are tightly bcrossed, that’s for sure</p>
<p>I generally agree with jym626 on the PsyD issue but would like to point out that a handful of university-based PsyD programs do offer good funding (e.g., Rutgers, Indiana State, Baylor, Indiana U-Pennsylvania, Albany [School Psych]). Generally, university-based PsyD programs (as opposed to free-standing professional schools) have better funding and match rates. All APA-accredited schools are required to disclose info regarding match rates, costs, and usually funding on their websites. I’d also recommend picking the Insider’s Guide to Clinical and Counseling Psychology and the APA’s graduate school in psychology, which have great info on funding, admission stats, and other aspects on the admissions process.</p>
<p>The most valuable thing anyone planning to apply to PhD programs in Clinical, Counseling, and/or School psych can do, IMO, is get strong research experience and develop strong research interests, which you can then use when matching with program “faculty.”</p>
<p>In scrutinizing programs, you might also want to inquire about the length of their accreditation period. All APA accredited programs must go through a regular reaccredidation process - APA may not reaccredit at all or may reaccredit for a variable numbers of years up to a maximum of 7 years. If a program got 7 years of reaccredidation, it indicates that APA had no concerns about the program and doesn’t need to reevaluate for 7 years - an indication of good quality.</p>