Welcome! @Mary13 will guide the discussion and usually gives us a list of discussion topics/questions. Then everyone can chime in at will - there may be several different conversations going.
The more the merrier, @packacards ! Welcome!
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Welcome, @packacards! I post questions (on the 1st of the month) and after that, we have a pretty freewheeling discussion. It lasts about 10 days, ebbing and flowing depending on how much time people have and/or the level of interest in the book. Book Club is every other month: February, April, June, August, October and December.
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Fantastic! Looking forward to it! Is their already a book for April?
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Not yet. Weâll start considering what it should be when weâre done talking about CCL â probably around the 10th of February.
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Welcome @packacards, @Mary13 has been facilitating ( dare I say) the best book discussion ever, for the last 15 years ?
You might enjoy looking at some of the discussions, most likely you have read some of the selections. After each discussion, the next selection is voted on, in the fairest way, a few guidelines, almost never nonfiction, books which will be available through libraries, ie the top best sellers usually are overlooked for a later time, individuals can say yea or nay for a variety of reasons, and our fearless, kind, @mary13 will tally the popularity of the votes and make decision.
Trust me, you may read things you wouldnât usually read, and they may be wonderful discoveries.
Welcome
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Just a tangent. Saw this article in the paper and it made me think of Seymour & Trusty Friend.
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Itâs February 1st! Welcome to our discussion of Cloud Cuckoo Land by Anthony Doerr. I give this one five stars, and itâs been a long time since Iâve done that. I looked forward to reading it each time I picked it up, and 640 pages never went by so fast. I thought Doerr did a good job of linking together stories that at first seemed wildly disparate.
This book was very different from All the Light We Cannot See (and better, too, I thought â although I liked ATLWCS very much); however, I did see one similarity in structure. Anna and Omeir spend most of the novel on separate journeys, until their paths finally cross at a key moment. That reminded me of Marie-Laure and Werner. (I donât mean to go off on a tangent, but Iâm thinking many of you might have read All the Light We Cannot See.)
Below are discussion questions to either use or ignore, as you see fit!
Discussion Questions
Consider Sybil, the omnipresent, teacherly AI system aboard the Argos, to whom we are introduced in the prologue. Sybilâs core objective is to keep the crew safe. As the novel progresses, Sybilâs objective remains the same, but her role in Konstanceâs story grows more and more complicated. How does your opinion of Sybil change as the novel progresses? In your opinion, is she a sinister character, a benevolent one, or neither?
Early on in the novel, Anna is enchanted by an ancient fresco in an archerâs turret; each time she looks at it, âsomething stirs inside her, some inarticulable sense of the pull of distant places, of the immensity of the world and her own smallness inside itâ (page 36). How does Annaâs response to the image of Cloud Cuckoo Land compare to Aethonâs when he envisions a city in the clouds in Folio β? What does Cloud Cuckoo Land represent for each of them?
Libraries play a central role throughout the novel, both as sanctuaries for children and as stewards of knowledge. Compare the library in Lakeport and the one aboard the Argos. How does the virtual library of Konstanceâs time differ from the library in modern-day Idaho? In what ways are they similar? Imagine a library in the year 2200 AD. What does your futuristic library look like?
In the immediate lead-up to the siege of Constantinople, Anna and Omeir suffer personal tragedies on opposite sides of the city walls. How does the loss of Maria, Moonlight and Tree affect these characters? What do you think would have happened to them had they not encountered one another in the forest outside Constantinople?
After the death of Trustyfriend, Seymour falls into deeper and deeper mourning for his beloved forests and their inhabitants. As a teenager, he becomes enraptured with a militant environmental justice group, lead by a mysterious figurehead known only as âBishop.â In what ways does Seymourâs ideology initially match that of Bishopâs group? How does Seymourâs ideology in his adolescence compare to his thinking later in life? In your opinion, what accounts for the change?
Throughout the novel, Konstance wonders what drove her father to join the crew of the Argos. Name a few plausible motivations. If you were in his position, would you be willing to accept a spot on the Argos and leave the Earth forever? Why, or why not?
Consider Zenoâs epiphany â that âDiogenes, whoever he was, was primarily trying to make a machine that captured attention, something to slip the trapâ (page 490). Why is this realization so important to Zeno? What is an example of a story that was meaningful to you during your childhood, and what impact has it had on your life?
To gain entry to Cloud Cuckoo Land, Aethon must correctly answer a riddle. âHe that knows all that Learning ever writ, knows only this.â The correct answer is ânothing.â Recall that this section of the original Greek manuscript was too eroded to read. Why do you think Zeno chose to complete the riddle in this way?
On page 534, Omeir thinks to himself, âAll my lifeâŚmy best companions cannot speak the same language as me.â What does he mean? What role does Omeirâs empathy for all creatures, regardless of their ability to communicate verbally, play in the story?
Ilium employs Seymour to help overwrite âpotentially undesirable items inside the raw image setsâ (page 562). Over the years, Seymour begins to rebel, hiding bits of code in Iliumâs system that, if touched, reveal the gritty reality beneath the corporationâs glossy alterations. Why does Seymour decide to stop cooperating with Ilium? Do you agree with Seymour, that it is important to remember the past in its entirety, sadness, ugliness and all? Why or why not?
Consider the two possible endings to Aethonâs story. Based on Zenoâs translation up to Folio X, which path do you think Antonius Diogenes intended Aethon to take? Why do the children at the Lakeport library prefer the version in which Aethon returns home, and how would your perception of Diogenesâ tale be different if Aethon had remained in Cloud Cuckoo Land? How would it have changed your perception of Doerrâs novel as a whole?
Consider the many examples of nostos, or âhomecoming,â in the novel: Konstance breaks free from the Argos and embarks on a life on Earth; Zeno returns home after the war to his quiet life in Lakeport; Omeir, too, returns home from war, to his beloved village in the Bulgarian hills; Seymour finds himself drawn to the virtual version of the hometown he left behind; Anna, always so restless, finds a peaceful life of love and intellectual freedom with Omeir. Which story did you connect with the most, and why? In your opinion, what does the novel have to say about the value of âhomeâ?
Konstanceâs narrative bookends the novel. Why do you think the author chose to start and finish Cloud Cuckoo Land with her story?
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- Consider Sybil, the omnipresent, teacherly AI system aboard the Argos, to whom we are introduced in the prologue. Sybilâs core objective is to keep the crew safe. As the novel progresses, Sybilâs objective remains the same, but her role in Konstanceâs story grows more and more complicated. How does your opinion of Sybil change as the novel progresses? In your opinion, is she a sinister character, a benevolent one, or neither?
I didnât find Sybil to be either sinister or benevolent; she was a computer, so I tried not to anthropomorphize her too much. (Although I guess I just veered from that by using âsheâ and âherâ!) Near the end, Sybil did remind me a bit of HAL in 2001:A Space Odyssey.
If I understood correctly, the Argos never left Earth, but was a sealed, self-sustaining enclosure on land. I get that everyone inside thought they were traveling through space, but what did everyone outside the Argos think? Did they know that the strange giant structure was inhabited and simply accept the experiment? If not, did no one ever bother to investigate the contents?
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I also rate this book 5 stars; also a rarity for me. When I first started the book I couldnât get into it and really thought I wouldnât like it. I surprised myself by loving it as much as I do.
Agree with @Mary13 that Sybil is neither good nor bad â she/it is simply a computer, programmed to do what she/it does. I admit to being surprised that the Argos was not, in fact, flying through space â and even more surprised that Konstance figured that out. She was one smart 14 year old! (Am I correctly remembering her age?)
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Also rated it 5 stars. I loved All the Light, but this was really a great adventure to read.
Yes, the Argos never left Earth. Did everyone inside think they were traveling through space? I thought Konstanceâs dad put her in the vault in order to figure that out for herself and get off the ship.
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Loved love this book, much more than I expected. My favorite story arc was Konstanceâs. I also didnât see it coming that they were still on Earth.
Sybillâs single minded objective brought up a lot of AI ethics conversations. Would Sybill have kept Konstance imprisoned until her death? I think likely so.
I was most disturbed by Seymourâs story arc. Partly because the author did such an incredible job of making me empathize with him despite his despicable actions. I wanted to hate him after the library shooting, but wanted to hug the little boy that he was and all the trauma he endured.
I felt rather disconnected with Anna and Omeir. They were my least favorite sections of the book. I found myself rushing through their chapters to get back to the others.
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I also loved the book.
âAnd the tale I have to tell is so ludicrous, so incredible, that youâll never believe a word of it, and yet⌠itâs true.â This really sums up the way I felt about the whole enterprise. I loved the way all the moving parts fitted together. And I really didnât even need the big chapter dividers with dates and people.
I too, thought that Sybil reminded me of a lot of classic robots/AIs, especially Isaac Asimovâs three rules of robotics.
First Law
A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
Second Law
A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
Third Law
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
My main issue with the book was that the setup on the Argos seemed nuts. No windows. No progress reports. No real engineers if something broke. Yet this crazy virtual library/game room. It made a lot more sense once all was revealed. I wondered how much of the crew had been very young and naive like Konstanceâs father and whether some were in on the secret or if the entire crew had been snookered. These questions bothered me, but in the end I decided I could suspend my belief a little for the sake of the story. After all thatâs what Iâd been asked to do from the very beginning, right?
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And what was the objective of setting up the whole space ship in the first place? Who decided to do so, and why was that reality never ever leaked?
I liked it when Konstance noticed, relatively early, an ant crawling around, and she wondered how it got there. Then, of course, the sickness invaded, and obviously that had to come from outside.
And the person I felt the most sorry for was Seymourâs mother (whose name I donât recall right now). She tried hard to be a champion for Seymour while also keeping a job, and a roof over their heads. She worked really hard and loved him very much. Sadly, her story is not an unusual reality.
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I really enjoyed this book. I loved going back and forth between the different times and how Doerr eventually tied everything together.
If I have one tiny complaint, it is with end of Konstanceâs story. I wanted to know more. What was Earth like when she first came out of Argos? Why hadnât anyone ever checked on the people in Argos? The last Argos chapter is Mission Year 65. Konstance is 14. Rachel, one of the students from Zenoâs library play, was Konstanceâs Great Grandmother. Iâve been looking back to find Konstanceâs fatherâs age, but it is difficult to find, especially on a Kindle. We were told he was one of the few people on Argos to have lived on Earth.
I wonât bore you with my calculations, but I put Konstanceâs father at around 78 at the end of the book when Konstance is 14. I figured the Argosâ âjourneyâ begins in 2073, lasts 65 years, and it is 2138 when Konstance leaves the Argos. The Qaanaaq chapter at the end of the book is 2146, so Konstance should be 22. None of this may be important. I just wanted to know.
Is the village Konstance lives in one of the last in the world? Are these the people who will repopulate the earth or are they still caught in its final destruction?
I just read what I wrote to my husband. He feels all the other story lines show human perserverance and survival, so feels Konstanceâs story will be the same. The people of Konstanceâs village will be part of the future. Their story will live, as well as Aethonâs.
I like that perspective. I think Iâm going to agree with him.
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I donât fit in at the moment. While I like Cloud Cuckoo Land, I did not love it. I had a somewhat weird reading experience in that while I read all was good. However, the minute I put the book down I had to push myself to pick it back up. It finally captured my attention on page 400 or so. Too late in my opinion. In my defense my local librarian quit reading it altogether and my librarian daughter finished but dragged her way through it. She said she got some nagging household chores done rather than read. So Iâm not the only one.
On the other hand, kudos to Doerr. I can admire what he achieved here. Ever watch a movie and admire the acting or sets or whatever but leave with a sorta âyeah that was goodâ rather than raving about it?
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I think this was a book you had to read through with minimal breaks in reading time to keep the story flowing. With the different storylines and characters, it was hard to keep everything straight at the beginning. I procrastinated and ended up reading/listening to the whole book in a few days at the end of last week. I thought the audible version of the book was very well done.
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This is one of the few times when I still have the ebook checked out when the discussion starts! At present Iâm waiting for husband to get out of surgery for hamstring reattachment - then most of my time the next few weeks will be waiting on him ;).
I went through the book quickly; no problem keeping track as to whose story I was reading. I enjoyed it but wouldnât say it was one of the best books ever. My favorite stories were Konstance and Anna.
A few thoughts.
- I kept thinking of the Browning quote, âAh, but a manâs reach should exceed his grasp or whatâs a heaven for.â The book seemed to suggest the opposite - to be content with what one could normally achieve. In keeping with that, I also kept getting a Wizard of Oz vibe, âThereâs no place like home.â Certainly the concept of what âhomeâ means played a major role.
-It seemed like there were long drawn out sequences then the followups were shoehorned in. For example, after Anna has the extensive escape sequence and finally finds shelter, she takes a better look at Omeir and suddenly she has three children. And grows old and dies - yikes! Couldnât we have spent a little time enjoying her life? As noted above, it was similar with Konstance. She worked so hard to get out of the ship then boom, itâs years later and sheâs living in the nearby colony.
-I liked the connections between stories but they also came in rapid sequences. Example, how the Cloud Cuckoo Land manuscript ended up in Constantinople then Urbino then the Vatican then the Argos. Also, it was almost a casual note how Seymour was the one to really develop Atlas and the VR and left the owl easter eggs along the way. The familial relationships also got included in a way that could have been missed in reading.
-Oh - noticed there was a child on the ship named Omicron. (I wrote down that note but now canât remember why it caught my eye.)
-Final question - what happened to Zeno when he ran out with the bomb? Did it explode (there was no hint of that in Seymourâs trial)? Or did he have a heart attack - it was suggested that could be the case.
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It wasnât clear to me either. I believe when Konstance was searching for information on Zeno the article she found said he was murdered. That is the only thing that makes me think the bombs went off. Even with that, Iâm not sure how it is murder. He chose to pick them up, run, and save everyone.
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Thoughts on Sybil -
When Seymour is attacking the library Zeno has this thought -
âThatâs what the gods do, they spin threads of ruin through the fabric of our lives, all to make a song for generations to come.â
This passage immediately made me think of how Sybil was introduced to us at the beginning of the book.
âBehind her, inside a translucent cylinder that rises 16 feet from floor to ceiling, hangs a machine composed of trillions of golden threads, none thicker than a human hair. Each filament tunes around thousands of others in entanglements of astonishing intricacy. Occasionally a bundle somewhere along the surface of the machine pulses with light: now here, now there. This is Sybil.â
It struck me that Doerr used threads to describe both Sybil and the work of gods. Was it intentional? Was he giving Sybil godlike qualities? Sybil, who is always there and knows all.
I agree with comments above that Sybil was neither benevolent or sinister. She was just doing her job. I wonder what her story would have been to Argo inhabitants when they reached their destination. Was she programmed to tell them the truth that they never left earth?
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