Colgate or Johns Hopkins?

College Search & Selection
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Absolutely not. 60k in debt with a BS in biology is crippling - 60K in debt is crippling to start with in the current job market but with the glut of bio majors, it’s one of the worst majors for employment right now.
60K in debt before even starting med school is a very bad idea, too, BTW.
If OP goes on to a PHD that’s another matter, but at no point has OP mentioned interest in getting a PHD. In any case, “If the OP chooses Bio graduate school, he/she would graduate with zero debt” is inaccurate, OP would have 60K to reimburse after s/he gets his/her PHD.
Getting from a bio major into engineering isn’t automatic AND isn’t like switching majors within liberal arts (which is fairly painless) since the engineering progression is very prescriptive. However Op hasn’t mentioned engineering either.</p>

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<p>$60k is just too much debt to incur for the typical undergrad. Indeed, no bank will even loan an undergrad that kind of coin. (It would require a co-signer.)</p>

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<p>My young cousin goes to JHU, and I have seen him a few times over the past couple of years at family events. Honestly – he is hollow eyed and exhausted, stays for less than half a day, and heads back to campus because he has so much work to do. He is pre-med at Hopkins. Now… that does not mean he doesn’t like it, I think he does. He is very, very bright and completely committed to the pre-med path. But it is a crazy hard working place for pre-med students. They work a LOT harder against tougher competition for a 3.34 than a Colgate student does.</p>

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<p>That’s interesting. One of my kids has a graduate fellowship at Stanford. I don’t believe it’s “the” Stanford graduate fellowship, but it does pay full tuition plus a very generous stipend. He graduated from a LAC. We can trade anecdotes like this related to individual graduate programs; or, we can look at the data. What the available NSF data shows is that LAC alumni tend to perform very well compared to research universities in PhD completion rates across many fields (including life sciences). I have seen no data that indicates this is only because LAC alumni are gravitating to weaker programs. </p>

<p>I’m not arguing that, all things being equal, Colgate would be a better choice (or a worse one). However, all things are not equal. Colgate is $50K cheaper for the OP. If you’re going to choose the more expensive alternative because you think it will get you a better job or into a better grad school, wouldn’t you want some hard-headed evidence to support that claim? Assuming cost is important to you, that is. </p>

<p>Having more distinguished faculty in your major department may indeed be a $50K advantage … as long as they actually teach and interact with undergrads. Hopkins is very good about exposing details about its courses. From the “Class Search” page, you can drill down to information about who teaches undergraduate bio courses, the class sizes, and other information (<a href=“JHU Public Course Search”>https://isis.jhu.edu/classes/&lt;/a&gt;).
You can look up the named instructors in the faculty listings (<a href=“http://www.bio.jhu.edu/Directory/TenuredPlusTenureTrack.aspx”>http://www.bio.jhu.edu/Directory/TenuredPlusTenureTrack.aspx&lt;/a&gt;). If they aren’t listed, they may be grad students.</p>

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<p>I have no doubt that such is true, bcos:</p>

<p>1) the 'Gate applicants were few and far between, and thus outnumbered;
2) those applicants from research powerhouses have plenty of research on their resumes.</p>

<p>But note, that is not necessarily relevant to a premed. Research is only required of those premeds who are seeking an MD/PhD program, or targeting a top ~10 med school. For all others it’s a nice-to-have EC.</p>

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<p>Wow thanks for all the feedback.invaluable but still very torn.
Here are some details
GPA 3.9 W 4.7
Full IB candidate
7 AP credits of 4.and above
SAT 2240</p>

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<p>tk:</p>

<p>Here’s the link to the Stanford Graduate Fellowship across all STEM disciplines (it’s the most selective fellowship as it’s a guaranteed 3 years of funding without TA/CA requirements similar to the NSF Grad Fellowship):</p>

<p><a href=“http://sgf.stanford.edu/”>http://sgf.stanford.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As for Hopkins faculty interaction, you can rest assured that happens. See here:</p>

<p><a href=“http://hub.jhu.edu/gazette/2014/march-april/focus-pura-awards”>http://hub.jhu.edu/gazette/2014/march-april/focus-pura-awards&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And those are just the funded undergraduate awards that many universities have emulated (see Duke and Northwestern for similar amounts). Countless other undergraduates participate in unsponsored research as well. </p>

<p>Cross-checking ISIS also indicates professors teach the main lectures, while TAs teach the sections as expected.</p>

<p>Faculty also teach the main course lectures and have available happy hours - grad students are responsible for teaching the sections. This is consistent across most disciplines. </p>

<p>What the OP should do is ask the faculty members this exact question. Go to JHU and ask their professors if they feel going there would benefit them more over going to a less renowned college.</p>

<p>I did this when selecting my undergrad, and it was a resounding yes. This was further amplified when I applied to grad schools with the interviewing faculty members recognizing my recommendation writers and testing my understanding of advanced/sometimes graduate level concepts in courses I had taken - leading me to get the SGF and the most selective fellowships at Princeton (Gordon Wu Fellowship) and Columbia as well. Again, experiences that are less likely to happen coming from an LAC as the professors there are more focused on undergraduate teaching.</p>

<p>What you’ve posted previously is again murky data on total Bio Ph.D. matriculation. Similar stats can be had for law schools and med schools, but a Princeton Ph.D. or a Stanford MD /Ph.D. is not the same as a Arizona MD or Ph.D.</p>

<p>You and I don’t have access to the revered “apples to apples” comparison that provides insight into this data. </p>

<p>We merely have anecdotal evidence, although mine is first hand experience on an actual graduate admissions and fellowship selection committee at Stanford and as a graduate student that won fellowships and interviewed with professors at most of the leading engineering schools.</p>

<p>Again, it’d be more beneficial if we had others with graduate school admissions panel experience or with professor experiences can chime in here.</p>

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<p>But you don’t have evidence to the contrary either. The best we can say is that we don’t know the quality of the programs that LAC students are admitted to and complete their PHDs in. And hence, the only conclusion you’re really able to draw from the data is that LACs complete PHDs at higher rates than universities. And that information isn’t very helpful without knowing the rigor of the programs that they’re admitted to; and more importantly, what their employment prospects are after their PHDs. </p>

<p>Presumably, after completing their PHDs, these graduates would like to have gainful employment. Perhaps even at institutions like the ones they had fond memories of. But whether these students are getting these positions is unknown.</p>

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<p>Yes this is a good point. And there’s arguably some evidence to support that. But it’s far from definitive. It really comes down to how much risk you’re willing to take.</p>

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<p>MYOs,</p>

<p>They would graduate with zero debt after grad school because Bio Ph.D. programs have a stipend which they can apply towards living expenses and towards existing debt. You get paid to go to graduate school for a Ph.D. after all. It sounds like you don’t know how graduate schools work.</p>

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<p>No, it’s data on PhD completions.
The NSF tracks precisely the number of doctorates earned, year after year in many disciplines, by alumni of hundreds of colleges. </p>

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<p>Some LACs do list the graduate schools where their alumni most frequently pursue PhDs. For the colleges listed below, the grad schools most frequently attended by alumni apparently include: Berkeley, Chicago, Harvard, JHU, Michigan, Stanford, Wisconsin, and Yale.</p>

<p><a href=“http://econ.williams.edu/students/grad-student-list”>http://econ.williams.edu/students/grad-student-list&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/student-life/career-services/post-graduation-statistics.xml”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/student-life/career-services/post-graduation-statistics.xml&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“Center for Careers and Internships | Middlebury”>Center for Careers and Internships | Middlebury;
<a href=“http://apps.carleton.edu/campus/ira/outcomes/grad_schools/”>http://apps.carleton.edu/campus/ira/outcomes/grad_schools/&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.wellesley.edu/biologicalchemistry/after”>http://www.wellesley.edu/biologicalchemistry/after&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://new.oberlin.edu/dotAsset/1615260.pdf”>http://new.oberlin.edu/dotAsset/1615260.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“Life After Reed - Institutional Research - Reed College”>http://www.reed.edu/ir/success.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>If LACs don’t offer some resources that research universities provide, this apparently is not preventing LAC alumni either from earning PhDs at high rates, nor from earning them in top programs.<br>
(However, I have not seen such a grad school listing for Colgate. Maybe admissions or one of the departments could provide it.)</p>

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<p>Intparent and tk’s comments are on target and should be heeded. </p>

<p>Bluebayou’s comment about some weighting to GPAs being applied by med school adcoms based on undergrad program rigor/strength is true but misleading and should be cautiously interpreted. There is every reason to believe that the OP will perform at a somewhat higher relative GPA level at Colgate than Hopkins solely based on the slightly lower academic credentials of classmates there. There is ZERO reason to presume that he/she will fare any differently on MCATs or will ultimately fare any differently in med school applications coming from one institution or the other. </p>

<p>Again, I believe $, debt avoidance, should be the primary driver in this decision. </p>

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<p>^if that were the case, what’s the argument for anyone to attend an elite private research university for undergrad? ALL students distinctly middle class could have gone to a cheaper state school or earned merit scholarships at numerous other private universities for a lower price. What you’re suggesting does not happen in mass as the household decision makers perhaps view prestige in higher regard.</p>

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<p>tk, you’ve generalized this discussion to be about LACs vs Elite Privates. Colgate is not on the level of Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Hopkins, etc. Williams’s faculty members have gone to Harvard, Yale, etc. for Ph.Ds - so no surprise their graduates place well. Regardless, the lists you have posted are completely out of this stem graduate school discussion. Great, Williams does astoundingly well with economics placement - what on earth does that have to do with Biology graduate school? Econ graduate school requires rigorous math preparation as compared to biology graduate school which dictates heavy undergraduate research involvement. Middlebury’s Ph.D. placement which specifies programs enrolled in is not impressive at all for STEM placement. They are only impressive in humanities, which has a less research bent. </p>

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<p>When D2 was a sophomore, we met with a professor of biology at JHU who was a family acquaintance while visiting campus. D was considering a career in Biology research at the time. The professor was quite direct in saying it would be refreshing to have a student who was truly interested in bio for the sake of bio – that most of the students in the bio classes were just gunning for the A so they could get into med school. When asked if a different undergraduate college might be a good idea for a student interested in a Bio research career, she did not dispute that this might be a good idea. D ended up on a different path anyway, not Bio research and not applying to JHU. But the impression of the deeply competitive nature of JHU stuck with me.</p>

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<p>^that’s great intparent. I suppose all my JHU friends in medical schools were insanely competitive and did not have a good time - this must include my friend at Columbia med who partied most weekends while garnering a 3.7 in BME as a premed- seriously, he must have been ripping books every weekend. All you have is secondhand hearsay. You didn’t attend either school and are scared at the thought of JHU academics for whatever reason. If that’s the case, you must be scared of a lot of other things in life.</p>

<p>Seriously, OP: ask the professors if you can and don’t rely on terrible hearsay. </p>

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<p>Blah2009, you haven’t stated why you are such a cheerleader for JHU. Are you a JHU grad?</p>

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<p>Yes, I am. I had a great time contrary to your bizarre anecdotes, as did most of my friends who were premed. There’s no benefit for a disgruntled alum arguing on BEHALF of his school if he didn’t have a good time. </p>

<p>But who knows with your logic.</p>

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<p>This is the odd part of CC. You have a bunch of people commenting on experiences at schools they never went to. Why is it that it’s just you spouting these repeated competitive stereotypes intparent despite the notion being disproven time and time again by actual jhu students? That’s why it’s irritating. It’s kind of like if I just started shouting MIT is super competitive and miserable - despite the fact that I never went there. </p>

<p>It’d be stupid if I did.</p>

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<p>Well, sometimes people don’t recognize themselves… it isn’t “hearsay” when a longtime tenured professor at JHU tells me concerns about how students at JHU view the subject the OP wants to study.</p>

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<p>did you go to JHU? Have you asked students on campus how happy they are? Do you have any actual tangible experience with student life there?</p>

<p>No. No. and No.</p>