As a former physics major, my own experience was that most classes that involve a lot of challenging problem sets will spawn study groups (and yes, those are typically lecture style). Particularly once I was in grad school, it was only the very most socially unconnected folks that would even contemplate suffering through the avalanche of grueling problem sets on their own.
@circuitrider, that’s a fair point. It might be true that more study groups tend to arise for larger lecture style classes. My S (a college frosh) described an informal study group he had for his philosophy class (about 50 students). They all found it much more helpful to discuss concepts together in a way that that they weren’t comfortable or time wouldn’t allow in class.
@lookingforward , you’re absolutely right – the party scene is completely unrelated to this topic.
I continue to believe that there are elements of competition and collaboration everywhere. If you tend to enjoy competition you can be competitive – and you can do so within the bounds of civility and fairness – and if you like collaboration you’ll naturally seek out and find others who are similar. Most well-balanced, self-confident students will be able to grow, achieve their goals, find a niche and attain a measure of happiness at any one of many of the great college options in this country, or in this Northeast region.
That said, we have a huge number of college options in the Northeast, and we’re trying to narrow those down. Maybe it’s true that there are no “cutthroat” schools in the Northeast, but I continue to believe that there are top schools that have cultures that tend, in general, more towards the collaborative than competitive (as compared to other colleges). I’d like to get insights as to what schools those might be, and I’ve received many helpful responses. We’re certainly not going to eliminate a possible choice as a result of one or two negative comments on CC, but we value and appreciate all responses and encourage more!
If anyone has an opinion they’re willing to express but not comfortable publicly posting, please don’t hesitate to send a PM.
Thanks!
A New York Times article, The Fading Honor Code, discusses a few of the colleges that have preserved this aspect of student life. Northeastern schools Middlebury, Hamilton and Haverford are specifically referenced, though Middlebury’s code may currently be in transition.
I wouldn’t say that study groups are mostly limited to large lectures. Yes, for my large, 50-person geology lecture, i had a study group with a few students to study for the final. And in my 12-person history/literature seminar I had a study group of few students to discuss the overarching concepts and themes that were threaded through the course in preparation for our final essays. In smaller classes at Penn we were also frequently assigned group work throughout the term. You can choose courses that deemphasize group work but collaboration is always an option both inside and outside of the classroom and in both large and small classes.
I think someone earlier made then point that any time you put together highly bright, motivated kids, with high hs performance, of course they will strive. Their prep is usually more competitive, their post-college goals can be, too. I suspect you aren’t talking about gentle colleges where most kids learn at their own pace, the grading bar is easier.
Do you want to narrow this down a bit for us, maybe tell her potential major? And what else she hopes for, outdoorsy, closer to a city, etc. Otherwise you.may get the usual endless lists of colleges others like.
@SoccerMomGenie, Because education is intertwined with culture, and culture is intertwined with competition, discussing competition in the context of education can get really interesting.
For example, some people appear to be highly motivated to get into a “hyper-competitive” college, but once they are admitted, they then become highly motivated to convince the world that it is not a “hyper-competitive” environment.
There is certainly room to challenge the logic of their arguments …
The liberal arts schools (IMO) tend to be more collaborative, with schools founded by religious groups being on the higher end.
I think there’s something to that. The top LAC’s are tough to get into, but they tend to attract fewer of the “petitioned to get out of gym and music so I could double up on my AP’s and get the GPA bump to become valedictorian” kids. Those kids tend to be very Ivy focussed and often their second choice is not a LAC.
Certain colleges have a history that encourages collaboration as well, and IMO this can be reinforced through the admissions process. For instance, my kids attend a school where the supplemental application required applicant to take a phrase from the school’s short mission statement and comment on it. One of my kids chose the phrase “in a collaborative residential community” to connect with. I think due to their small size the LACs can’t afford to have as many isolated or specialist kids. Students need to wear many hats, so they look for kids who can work well in a team.
This is not to say that that Ivies or other larger schools are not collaborative. It amuses me to note that no one ever says their own school is cutthroat. It’s always someone else’s, usually backed up by a friend’s experience, that is presented as overly competitive. I think the stories of students hoarding books or sabotaging other people’s research are largely apocryphal.
Students collaborated at my daughter’s “competitive” high school.
In term of cultures, I would describe her high school as more “cliquey” than “friendly”, but students certainly had friends within their cliques. Some kids enjoyed this environment more than others.
The existence of collaboration cannot be used to prove the absence of competition. Examples of collaboration can be found in the most competitive environments.
The existence of collaboration cannot be used to prove the existence of a “friendly” environment. Examples of collaboration can also be found in environments that are decidedly “unfriendly”.
One of the best examples of this phenomenon is a pack of wolves. Although wolves are known for being both collaborative and intelligent, I think that most parents would think twice before sending their kids into the wilderness for four years to live with a pack of wolves…
I don’t buy that the religious roots (most of which are long lost anyway) have anything to do with the collaborative nature of a college. I do agree that LACs tend to be more collaborative. But look at Harvey Mudd – very, very collaborative. No religious roots. Swarthmore – less collaborative – Quaker roots. I don’t recall hearing that any of the modern day highly religious colleges are very collaborative (eg, Liberty).
@intparent - Since when did Harvey Mudd qualify as a Northeastern school?
In the Northeast, the LA schools (IMO) are more collaborative, and the religious ones I feel are more so. Lafayette and Bowdoin feel collaborative, but I don’t think as collaborative as Haverford or Swarthmore do. As a Swarthmore parent, I’ll tell you I find the school freakishly so. From the other students, to the administration, to the professors; everyone is amazingly available and supportive. My child has absolutely no idea what other students grades are, and seems to always be working with a group on some sort of project, home work, or event.
It isn’t, of course. But it is a highly collaborative school, and an example of a school that has no religious roots. Also, I think Haverford is much more collaborative than Swat. Not to take anything away from Swat, one of my kids was admitted there a few years ago – but Haverford is particularly communal. That is not the impression Swat gives off.
@sue22 Actually, a Penn/Wharton Alum wrote a book about their college experience entitled “The Running Of The Bulls - Inside The Cutthroat Race From Wharton to Wall Street”. Another Penn/Wharton Alum wrote a review about it in Fortune and there was a book signing held at the Penn Club of New York.
Here is an excerpt from the book review. Note that the overall conclusion by the author of the review is that this level of competition provides an “unparalleled background for making the leap to a successful career on Wall Street” and therefore it “pays off in the end”…
http://www.forbes.com/2005/08/19/wharton-mba-wall-street-cz_0819bookreview.html
Re #52, “ones” made it past the Fortune editors?
@Mastadon , I agree this subject can get interesting. I’d argue though that anyone who makes it into one of the “hyper-competitive” colleges (which is a shockingly high number of colleges), should know that the world IS a hyper-competitive environment. The point that some might argue is whether it NEEDS to be or SHOULD be hyper-competitive.
@lookingforward , I appreciate your willingness to try to narrow the search for us. However, we’re really just at beginning stages and there’s a lot she doesn’t know yet. She’s just guessing at this point (about preferred locale, size, major, etc.) and she knows it. Maybe someday we’ll do a thread asking for advice when she decides about other key features she’s seeking, but for now this thread is very helpful to us. The one thing she does know is that she’s not interested in a hyper-competitive environment.
Although we’re definitely sticking to the Northeast for my D, I know there are a number of other people following this thread who are not limiting geography as much as we are – so by all means feel free to recommend schools elsewhere in the country
@Mastadon , your comments about your D’s high school emphasize to me the fact that different cultures do exist. My D was at a cliquey middle school. She was not happy with that and craved a more inclusive environment. She received a merit scholarship to a very prestigious boarding school not far from here (where she would be a day student), but ultimately decided (after a lot of gut wrenching) to attend a local day school that is high caliber but not as prestigious. While the prestige was tempting, and it’s also tempting for a high-achiever to go for the most competitive option, we ultimately decided on the day school in large part because we were so incredibly impressed by the wisdom, energy, insight and kindness of everyone we met at the school. Although it was a hard decision, we are all thrilled with it. I am continually impressed with the inspirational and engaged and caring faculty and administration. The kids are … kind! My daughter was nervous as a new freshman because she was taking a number of courses with mostly sophomores and one with mostly juniors. She expected to be ignored if not picked on. She was completely welcomed and made to feel comfortable from day one by EVERYONE. There are pockets of friends, but lots of overlap and intermingling of groups and she is not aware of any cliques. We know from first hand experience that this is not the case at the prestigious boarding school. So … we got lucky and found a top caliber high school that has plenty of competition and challenges, but where the atmosphere is supportive and friendly and collaborative. We’re hoping to try to duplicate that at college, if possible.
Somewhat to your other point, though, she’ll probably self-select out of the super competitive programs. Although she doesn’t yet know what she’ll major in, I’m not sure I can think of anything that she’d enjoy less than going to an intense business school in hopes of attaining an intense career on Wall Street!
However, there are some differences in how different school and career directions “filter” or “weed” students. In some directions, you are directly competing against others to gain admission to something desired (e.g. medical school, hired by law firm, hired to tenure track faculty position, admission to an oversubscribed major at the college). In others, the rigor of the process is the main hurdle (e.g. completing and graduating with an engineering degree).
Here’s something you don’t see at too many universities: credit for student-led courses:
http://wesleyanargus.com/2016/01/28/still-scrambling-for-credits-student-forums-are-here-to-save-the-day/
@SoccerMomGenie I have a nephew in Boston who goes to a fabulous day school that sounds a lot like your D’s. He chose it for its approach to education, energy, warmth, all the attributes that make it a special community. He’s a senior now and his college search is over- he got in ED to Bates. The other NE schools on his short list were Colby, St Lawrence, UVM; Bowdoin would have been if he didn’t think it was too far out of reach. Sounds like your daughter might really like the schools in Maine. Outside of the small LACs I would think Brown would be very attractive if she is keeping the super selectives on her list.
@SoccerMomGenie, can you provide more specifics with regards to GPA, SAT scores and course rigor as while all great there is a fairly wide amongst the NESCAC schools?