Collaboration Versus Competition in Top Northeast Schools

College Search & Selection
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Ok, @Chembiodad , I’ll give it a try. Her school doesn’t give GPAs (at least not until later), so I have to calculate it myself. Her Junior unweighted GPA is 3.78. She’s currently taking 4 APs, 1 Honors course, Art and Music. She took the “old” SAT and got a 2300. Her recent PSAT scores guarantee her NMSF. She’s an award-winning singer, public speaker and artist. She’s been engaged in musical theater since 3rd grade (but does not want to make that a career). Extracurriculars include newspaper editor, Model UN, A Cappella, and leadership in school’s diversity club (but she’s white). She’s decent at track and soccer. My guess is that she’d get a look at Ivies, but I’m not sure how much more than that. I suspect that some NESCACs might be safeties while others might be possibles.

Would appreciate recommendations for good safeties, possibles and reaches. Thanks!

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Whatever you do, include Muhlenberg. Theater is very strong and she would be a great merit candidate there. She might enjoy the theatre presence even if she doesn’t major in it. Having a couple of large merit plays is a good idea.

Trinity and Connecticut College are functional safeties. The others not, but will range from a good chance to a really good chance.

Colgate, Lafayette and Holy Cross would be on my list as well.

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@SoccerMomGenie, sounds like we have similar DD’s - I have two DD’s that have both achieved “high” 34 single sitting ACT scores; NM something, but hard to tell in NJ with 219 score; UGPA of 3.8/WGPA of 4.2; 2/5 AP’s to date and 3/4 planned for next year, so 6-9 overall; one x-country (captain) & track (indoor and outdoor) - talking to NESCAC coaches / one volleyball (HS and top level club team for another 6 months of the year), both summer science internships and 2015 Siemens Competition, both NHS and Language NHS.

Have toured most of the NESCAC’s and some Ivies - more to wrap up this winter/spring. We are assuming if at or above top 25% there is a chance and then we look at their HS acceptance rates to see what’s realistic from a Reach, Target and Safety perspective - not certain how else to separate further with 15-25% acceptance rates, but not assuming any except Connecticut or Trinity could be viewed as safety like with Bates and Colby being more safety-ish.

Also looking at Midwest LAC given geographic boost, so Carleton (reach?) Oberlin (target?), as well as Kenyon and Macalaster (safeties?).

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@SoccerMomGenie , in my experience (long ago), the level of competition had a great deal to do with the major. Pre-professional students (i.e., pre-med, pre-law) and students in programs which offer joint bachelors/masters degrees to a limited number of students (selected junior year, for example) were cut-throat. Not simply competitive, but cut-throat – as in required readings on reserve at the library would be taken out and not returned, or the required pages would be removed from the book. Programs such as engineering, in which the work was hard and the degree was valuable in and of itself, were highly collaborative. My experience at that particular school is so ancient as to be worthless in terms of the school’s current level of competition, but I’d venture that differentiation depending on major/the next step may be valid. In other words, you may want to explore this a little more precisely if your daughter has a couple of areas that interest her.

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@SoccerMomGenie, also DD’s are not outwardly competitive kids, despite athletic achievements; want to be able to sample a lot of stuff such as maybe combine biology with history or comp sci with psychology; wanted a more collaborative environment with more interaction with professors and felt that LAC’s and the less graduate focused Ivies better provided that

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@Chembiodad When you fold athletics in, what is a safety is totally different. I would bet a student with a 34 that is recruitable is an “A Band” recruit at every NESCAC school.

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@ScaredNJDad, appreciate the enthusiasm and that would be great, but as she feels that she is a “tip” not a "slot"recruit she’s continuing to do everything she can across the holistic spectrum to better her chances amongst the field.

One DD’s 34 was comprised of 36 Reading, 35 English, 35 Science, 30 Math and 36 Writing and so may retake a third time (2nd didn’t superscore to a 35), but probably not given need to focus on a 2nd SAT II (already scored a 740 Bio E) and then AP’s, as well as just enjoying HS.

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Chembiodad, not sure if you.mean Bates and Colby might be safeties, but each top school has attribute patterns they look for, a sort of college personality that can matter very much in admissions. You can’t find that in stats comparisons. It has to come from what the schools themselves say, what can be gleaned about their values and wants, beyond stats…

OP, look at Maine. All 3, Bates. Bowdoin, Colby. I’d call each reasonable. Look at the arts, music, theater activity opps . But also how community engagement figures. (Since nealy all hs encourage comm service, I’ll assume she has that and can fine tune now, if needed.) Look at Wesleyan, which is also strong in arts activities. You must have some idea of her academic interests, so look at those depts, courses offered and professor interests. If she may be stem, she may not want a small LAC. The Ivies, Williams, Amherst will depend on where she got less than A, how that relates to her possible major.

IMO, and it’s only IMO, not even my thread, this now goes beyond collaborative vs competitive. Pick a few and dig, see what questions come up. Most if us were helped by the Fiske or other college guides. I think it’s Fiske that offers a short list of similar schools. By mid junior year, many of us had already started visiting and narrowing (a bit.) Best wishes.

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And p.s., anecdotal, but every kid I know who went to Dickinson loved it and came out empowered.

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@lookingforward, yes that is why I pulsed on the holistic approach that all of these great school take as score distributions can shed some light, but likely very little.

The take away for them is that they’ve done the hard work to be able to be part of the conversation and are thrilled with the opportunity to be able to decide which are the best fit for each to apply to based on their respective personalities and academic focuses.

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@Chembiodad Your daughter is currently a Junior, correct? Once her transcripts are official in June I would guess, ask each coach to have her pre-read. If the coach says no, she isn’t recruitable, if the coach says yes and the result is either A Band or B Band, the chance of acceptance is very high. In fact a coach is more likely to go to bat for a B Band recruit because they are more likely to attend.

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@ScaredNJDad, yes a junior and currently communicating with a handful of coaches, but that is the extent at this point, so yes looks forward to next steps if there is an opportunity to do so…and really appreciate the insight!

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@circuitrider - That is cool!

There are only two other such programs that I know of…

It is the same general concept as an “Experimental College”. There was a whole movement back in the 1960’s.

Tufts may have been the first (1964), and Oberlin (1968) is only one other that is still around and gives course credit.

The Ex College concept represents a true “open” curriculum, as opposed to a “flexible” curriculum that some schools label as “open”.

At Tufts, anybody (not just Tufts students) can create and offer a course on any subject and add it to the curriculum - as long as it is approved by the students running the Ex College. This includes local practicing professionals (such as the general manager of the Boston Celtics) as well as local grad students (from Brandeis, BU, Harvard and MIT). Course offerings change every semester.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_College_(movement)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_College_(Tufts_University)

Tufts’ Ex College has grown quite large offering around 50 courses this semester. Some Ex College courses count toward some majors and minors, not just graduation credit. There are options for getting course credit for internships and special projects. If you want to create more breath in your curriculum and just “learn for the sake of learning”, then there is an option to audit three courses over your academic career and get one course credit. There is also a “1+4 bridge program” that gives one credit for community service performed during a special gap year program. (which is also covered by financial aid)

http://admissions.tufts.edu/academics/experimental-college/
http://www.excollege.tufts.edu/
http://excollege.tufts.edu/courses

Here is more info on Oberlin’s Ex College:

http://new.oberlin.edu/student-life/student-organizations/exco.dot

Haverford, UC Davis and University of Washington all have Ex Colleges, but none offer course credit and one has professional instructors:

http://ww3.haverford.edu/generated/organizations/exco.html
https://ecollege.ucdavis.edu/mission
https://depts.washington.edu/asuwxpcl/about.php

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Thanks, everyone for the inputs. As I know a number of people are following this thread and are interested in both the schools that have been identified publicly as well as in private messages, I’ll provide my tally below. Keep in mind that precision is difficult for several reasons: (a) Some people mentioned generalizations (for example, LACs or NESCACs) and in those cases I did not score a point for each of the NESCACS, only if a school was mentioned by name; (b) In some posts after I mentioned some of my D’s stats it wasn’t 100% clear to me whether the schools were being mention because they were an academic fit or because they were a fit AND collaborative, so I assumed the latter; © Some people wrote what I considered mixed messages so it was hard for me to count them either way (I put Cornell and Williams in that hybrid group); (d) Some people may not have mentioned a school because they saw it mentioned before, so the counts may not mean too much; and (e) some people mentioned the same schools in more than one post, so I tried to only count that as 1 mention, but I could have missed something. So with those caveats, especially the one that I’m not perfect, here’s my count:

MOST COLLABORATIVE:
Generalizations: NESCACs, LACs generally, Catholic schools generally, Religious schools generally

Specific:
Bates (7 mentions)
Bowdoin (5)
Haverford (5)
Carleton (4)
Colby (4)
Hamilton (4)
Oberlin (4)
Conn College (3)
Lafayette (3)
Wesleyan (3)
Colgate (2)
Dickinson (2)
Grinnell (2)
Harvey Mudd (2)
Middlebury (2)
Mount Holyoke (2)
Notre Dame (2)
Trinity (2)
Tufts (2)
Whitman (2)
Amherst (1)
Brown (1)
Holy Cross (1)
Kenyon (1)
Macalaster (1)
MIT (1)
Muhlenberg (1)
RPI (1)
St. Lawrence (1)
Swarthmore (1)
UPenn (1)
UVM (1)
Yale (1)

LEAST COLLABORATIVE / MOST HYPER-COMPETITIVE OR CUTTHROAT
Generalizations: Ivies; Graduate programs, Pre-med …

Specific:
Swarthmore (3 mentions)
Johns Hopkins (2)
Amherst (1)
Georgetown (1)
Tufts (1)
Wellesley (1)

NOTABLY:
Three Ivies were described as collaborative: Brown, UPenn, and Yale
Three schools showed up both lists. Amherst and Tufts each got 1 mention on each list; Swarthmore got 1 mention on the collaborative list and 3 mentions on the hyper-competitive list.
Some people felt compelled to mention schools outside the requested region (the Northeast); perhaps that speaks particularly strongly for those schools (or maybe it just reflects the schools that people are familiar with).

Overall, I found this to be very helpful. It’s not a science, there are no absolutes, but I do think cultural differences exist. I appreciate people sharing their perspectives and I encourage you to continue to do so. I’d like to keep this thread more general and on point to the collaborative versus hyper-competitive cultures as opposed to giving specific advice for my D. If anyone has specific recommendations for my D, I certainly welcome them, but preferably in a PM. Thanks!!

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That was super helpful. However, now that the methodology has been revealed, Northeastern may game the rankings.

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The mention of JHU on the “hyper-competitive” lists may be due to the relatively large number of aspiring pre-meds there compared to many other schools.

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“@ScaredNJDad1 When you fold athletics in, what is a safety is totally different. I would bet a student with a 34 that is recruitable is an “A Band” recruit at every NESCAC school.”

You might be surprised. At at least two of the NESCACs you also have to have top tier grades to be an A Band recruit. This is not to say that they won’t want recruit a kid as a B Band if they have a spot available, but admissions won’t let them treat a kid with a 3.5 gpa as an A Band, no matter how high they score on their ACT or SAT.

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@ThankYouforHelp With a 34 ACT wanna bet? A 34 ACT is rare, yet much more rare is a kid with a 34 ACT and recruitable skills.

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@SoccerMomGenie, remember that your results may be skewed by the alumni who just happen to be posting on this thread; not that anyone’s trying to game your survey, just that most of us love our own schools and our posts tend to reflect that.

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@ScaredNJDad1 With a 34 ACT wanna bet? A 34 ACT is rare, yet much more rare is a kid with a 34 ACT and recruitable skills.

Yes, they are rare. That’s why they so coveted. Amherst and Williams are only recruiting two or three kids per year for nearly every sport (football is the only exception). And although they are “recruiting,” they are not getting the very best athletes - those are going to Division 1 or even the Ivies. Instead, they are mostly getting the quite good but not great athletes who also fit their admissions profile. .

My D went through the recruiting process at Amherst, Williams, Pomona, Swarthmore and several other places, as well as some Ivies, and I know exactly what I am talking about. Her college team has several high school valedictorians on it.

Now, the Ivies made it clear to us that they were much more able to bend their admissions standards, but of course you also had to be substantially better at your sport for them to be interested.

Again, I’m sure football is different, and maybe basketball too. They always are.