It looks like she was tied for 23rd overall but 5th among 10th graders. I think that’s what ewho mean by “in her class” and just had it off by one place.
^^
She’s tied for 4th place among 10th graders (tied for 23rd overall).
Oh…okay. I didn’t read the post that way. Sorry if I misunderstood.
Would that not be silly? But about projecting the actions of a “population” that has any of those “experts” on speed dial:
http://www.academy4enrichment.com/
http://www.mytjprep.com/
http://www.optimaltjprep.com/
If it isn’t a Tripathi clone, how about the tutoring that starts as soon as kids can walk and talk?
Are you really willing to pretend that the current distribution of students at TJ has nothing to do with that “prep” rat race? While it might not be unique to that particular Virginia magnet school with a selection process, don’t assume that observers are all blind and deaf to what happens in their community. The little spelling bees kings and queens do not appear magically; they are produced and assembled. Same thing for the science fair geniuses; the math and chess competitions gurus, and about any other activity that produces individual awards.
Kids do not drive themselves to those activities. They are schlepped to them!
If you look at academy4enrichment you will see the name “Pooja Chandrashekar” of Nysmith.
She was the student from TJ who gained admission into all the ivy league schools this year. My own dd attended one of these schools and it is serious dedication from the students and parents. (money and time) Most Asian students have prepared for the TJ admission exam for minimum one to two years attending prep classes every weekend and sometimes after school. (At that time some started in 5th grade) During summer break they are attending prep classes M-F with TJ prep in the morning and some STEM classes in the afternoon. They are going into the exam having taken many practice tests and are very well prepared for the test. By the time the SAT’s comes around these students are so well prepared when it comes to performing well. It is as if they were preparing for the SAT since 5th or 6th grade. These kids are using their summer vacations to do their best to get ahead of the competition having taken numerous practice exams.
@xiggi What you’re saying is actually quite offensive. Do you actually believe TJ kids don’t do activities like spelling bees and science fairs on their own accord?? I’m sorry, that’s just not true. We’re dedicated students that love what we do and have varied interests. You are truly projecting the traits of a few onto an entire population of students. The math “gurus” didn’t get there because their parents wanted them there. Our “A” Team for math team is comprised of students who are super gifted at math (most of them take at least multivar as a junior). The chess team consists of kids who genuinely enjoy chess. The students I know that went far in the science fairs had deeply personal inspirations for their projects. The students who are as you said “produced and assembled” are not the ones who go far in these activities at TJ.
You are denying the hard work, talent, and passion of high school students, which is just not right. You obviously don’t know any TJ students personally, or else you wouldn’t have such skewed perspectives of our student body.
And you also have no clue what students do in our rigorous classes. Our math classes teach far beyond what most of their college counterparts teach. I have never learned so much material with such depth in my life. As a college freshman, I was explaining some aspects of calc 3 to my sophomore friends and I got a B- in the class at TJ. The AP exams cover only 1/2-3/4 of what our AP classes teach. To excel in these classes takes gift, dedication, and hard work. I also know several really cool senior tech projects that my friends have done and the personal reasonings behind them. We have students that are working on controlling wheelchairs with the mind, creating motorized prosthetic limbs, mapping the response and actions of nerves and muscles of an amputee to create better prosthetics, using stem cells to cure degenerative eye diseases, etc. People that do these kinds of things are not “produced and assembled”; those kinds of students just don’t have what it takes to produce these results. You can’t fake this stuff.
The students that are groomed and forced to attend to TJ I don’t believe should be attending TJ and is something I have issue with myself. But I don’t blame them or the school, I blame their parents who value their child’s wishes and health so little, and will do anything for themselves to look good.
You are quite confused!
Did I write anything that could be remotely close to that? Have I written anything about not working hard? Would that not be silly (again that word) considering the mountain of evidence of overworked, overtaxed young students, and especially so among the groups who flock to a school such as TJ or Stuyvesant?
Read your post(s) again and you might understand that you are actually … providing additional support to what I wrote about students being the products of their environment, including the parental pressures to excel and accomplish stated objectives.
And, if you want to address my posts, you might want to start addressing what I actually wrote, including the presence of the students’ mills. I posted three links.
@xiggi No, you don’t understand me. The majority of TJ students are driven by themselves and their passions (not the school or their parents). You are denying that. And that I have an immense issue with.
TJ students’ accomplishments are not created by the environment of TJ. These students would do similar things and go even farther at their base schools for some things. Being at TJ is a disadvantage for something like the science fair because you have to win your category at your school to progress.
It saddens me how much society misunderstands what goes on in the walls of schools like TJ or Stuyvesant. Let me be clear, TJ kids generally are not trying to outdo each other. We work together and support each. It is not a cut throat environment. There’s no need for us to try to one-up each other. We don’t have class rank; there is no hierarchy of students at TJ. Its a place for students to fulfill their desire to learn and have access to faculty and materials that allow them to pursue their dreams.
TJ students would still behave the way they did if they were at their base schools. It has nothing to do with TJ or the school environment. These would be the valedictorians of most high schools (FCPS doesn’t rank, idk about the other counties).
You are letting your preconceived notions cloud your understanding. What I am trying to say is that TJ doesn’t create who we become, but it allows us to reach our full potential. My message probably isn’t coming across right… I’m not good with writing.
As for those “student mills” many student get in without attending those. And guess what, even more students get rejected after attending one of those. Most of the kids I knew at TJ did not attend one of those programs. Those programs are pointless; they teach you how to pass the test, but thats not that hard. You only need a 60-75% on the test depending on your GPA (its correlated) and a certain number correct on math. That’s easy to do without the class. Theres so much more to the TJ application that those test scores don’t matter. It’s just the first round. If your score isn’t high enough, you get cut; after that, that score has no bearing on admissions. Those classes also don’t prepare for TJ if you get there. The students for who the class made a difference for on the test just won’t last at TJ.
I have no data to support this, but based on what I know from attending TJ, most students that get in after taking a class would have gotten in without it. It’s a waste of money. It just preys on gullible parents who don’t trust in their own child’s abilities.
And most asians have not attended prep classes; that is an urban legend that has no data to support it. A lot of asians do, but it is definitely not most, at least not for TJ.
Honestly, it’s so easy for you to judge looking from the outside, but you have no clue so just stop. You don’t know half of what you think you know. The fact that you lump TJ with every other magnet school is not fair (the only reason I lumped Stuy earlier is because I know several kids from there personally) and shows how little you actually know about the school. TJ is fairly unique and so is every other magnet school (some may be more similar than other). The conditions and inter-workings are different at every one of them is different. TJ has its own culture and student life. We aren’t Stuy, the School for Gifted and Talented, or BASIS; we’re TJ. So stop pretending that we’re all the same.
Oh, OK, what was I thinking. Without students preparing for the TJ tests, those “few” outfits must sell other services. I should not trust the web that spews dozen of addresses and hundreds of testimonials. I really should dismiss all that non-sense and trust your unbiased viewpoint. My bad!
And along the way, I hope you will have the opportunity to correct this equally misguided parent
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Chinese Parent Friday, April 20, 2012 at VV I’m a parent in a Chinese household, so let me try to tackle this issue from my perspective. Having your kid get into TJ is badge of honor in the Chinese community. Chinese parents start dreaming of their kids getting into TJ many years before they can apply. Chinese parents put in a lot of effort to teach their children math, because they know it is the foundation for all of the scientific careers. Chinese parents, in general, want their kids to pursue careers in science because they know these are well-paying jobs. Chinese parents are actively involved in their kids education. Chinese parents get their kids involved with extracurricular activities involving math and science. Chinese parents send their kids to TJ prep classes during the summer. So why do so many Chinese kids get into TJ? It’s because their parents worked hard for many years to prepare their kids to get there. The Chinese parents did not sit idly by and rely on the school system to prepare their kids for TJ. Instead, they got involved and made it happen themselves. There is a lot of work involved in motivating their kids, studying with them, driving them to STEM related extracurricular classes and activities, driving them to TJ exam preparation classes etc.
[/QUOTE]
So why do kids of other ethnic backgrounds not get into TJ in great numbers? I say it’s a cultural difference. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe that very many Hispanic, Black and white parents are so OBSESSED with their kids making into TJ. I work in the engineering field, and I talk to my coworkers about raising kids. I’m surprised to find that unlike many of the Asian parents I know, even non-Asian engineers do not push their kids to study math and they do not teach their children math; but rely on the school to do that. They leave it up to the child to decide whether they want to take the TJ exam, and they don’t prepare their children specifically for the TJ admissions process. Passing the TJ exam is only part of the process, there’s also the essay and the extracurricular activities and the personal statement that is written by the child. Here again, parents that don’t provide their kids with extracurricular activities involving STEM and don’t try to motivate their kids to get interested in STEM, end up with a child that has trouble competing with parents that have emphasized these things for the child’s entire life.
So parents, if you want your child to go to TJ, you must know that it is YOUR responsibility to make it happen and that it takes years of dedicated nurturing and preparation to increase your child’s chances of getting in. If you rely on your school or your child’s natural abilities to make it happen, then your child will have trouble competing against the children who have parents that have worked so hard for so many years to give their children the advantage over yours.
<<<
Yep, can’t trust that darn web nor the stories posted by parents on local boards. What do they know after all.
I am only talking about TJHSST here. I have experience with these prep centers and they are very good.
These schools don’t just prepare you for the test, they help as experienced counselors on all aspects of the application process and with a very good success rate. I know so many students in the last 8 years who attended these programs, were at the top of their class at TJ and attended top schools. I myself prepared students for TJ. Do not make the mistake of underestimating how good they are. (these prep centers) The provide a very good academic foundation regardless where the student attends high school. These kids learn good study skills. These kids got their passion because they were introduced to competitions at a very young age. (elementary school) I even know the people that run these programs. Their own kids were top students at TJ. These kids have been prepped academically most of their academic lives. And it is not just admission to TJ they help very young kids first get into the gifted and talented program as early as age 5. These kids have been introduced to chess, programming, mathcounts, cty, kumon, research and whatever else out there at a young age. Almost 70% of students accepted are Asian and these centers are catering to this community. Where does a 5 year old get passion from. They learn what they are exposed to and very early on it is taught at home that academics and STEM and getting into a top school is everything. When you are growing up in an environment where all that is discussed is the importance of academics and you see your friends doing all these things it becomes the norm and way of life for these kids. To someone not familiar to this it may sound like overkill. The drive and passion to succeed came from their parents. It has rubbed off on their kids and these kids work very hard. Not only the dedication of the students and teachers but the parents go above and beyond when it comes to their kids education. The parents spend all weekend sitting at the prep centers while their kids attend class. These students are very driven and have learned time management from a very young age. These kids go into college very well rounded and very well prepared. Unless you have attended one of these prep classes do not underestimate the quality of training and counseling provided. TJ admissions is very much aware of these schools. Don’t assume everyone is outside looking in. Some of the parents here are very familiar with TJHSST. Also don’t underestimate the caliber of the students who don’t attend TJ instead attend their base school sometimes with better college admission results. Fairfax county public schools are very rigorous. The IB Diploma program is also popular in Fairfax county but is not offered at TJ. I agree with xiggi 100%. There are many TJ caliber kids at these base schools. Also another thing most students I know don’t share everything that they are doing to prepare with their friends but their parents are very much aware of what their children are involved in. At the same time I will say a kid can be a top caliber student but sometimes they are better off at their base school than TJ. There any many ways to get to a goal. (attending college) TJ is just one path to that goal and if a student doesn’t attend TJ it is not the end of the world either.
My son was very happy at TJ and he tells me that he felt no pressure while there, other than his own desire to understand the material he was being taught. I for one am thankful for the opprtunities he was given at TJ both in and out of the classroom. He found a home there – on the athletic fields, in the classroom, and with like minded peers.
Intense environment? Yes, with all those bright and curious minds. Cutthroat? Not according to my son, who says he found great support from his classmates, teachers, counselors, and coaches. He was happy for all of his friends and their accomplishments, and he felt that same support from others.
If the place is so miserable, alumni wouldn’t come back to visit in droves every break. DS goes back to see teachers and counselors every chance he gets and says that the hallways are crawling with alumni during college breaks.
FWIW, he did no test prep for TJ (or for the SAT for that matter), nor did we spend money on consulting services for the admissions process.
Sometimes I think the worst thing to happen to TJ was getting ranked so highly by U.S. News and other publications. That put the school in the public eye and drove applicants who are not so much interested in the math and science offerings at the school, as they were in the “prestige” of the ranking, just like what we see on these boards with respect to colleges.
I’m a parent of kids who were at the highly competitive STEM and IB selective entry programs across the river from TJ. Neither of my kids took an SAT prep course. Neither took the SAT in 7th grade for CTY. They attended the 4th-5th grade programs, the MS STEM and humanities magnets, and then the magnet HS programs. Because of the commute and increased workload involved, it meant that attending was a family decision. We encouraged our kids to seriously consider the pros and cons of attending the neighborhood schools. S2 was also accepted to the STEM program, but concluded that it would be a very tough slog academically and for ECs. He was able to play a sport at the IB HS because that school was closer to our house vs. the location of the STEM program.
S1 took the SAT once in the spring of junior year. Took the SAT-IIs cold. No paid college consultant here – I found CC and concluded I didn’t need one. S1’s STEM magnet has produced more Intel finalists than TJ. S assiduously avoided the grade grubbers and competitive folks. That was not too difficult – he had a cohort of friends who had eclectic interests. He spent an hour a night on homework and had good, but not perfect, grades. We didn’t push – he dragged us. He taught himself programming and math in elementary school and kept going. The Logical Journey of the Zoombinis was his favorite game as a kid and he soaked it up.
In HS, he took MV, diff eq, complex analysis, MV, lin alg, discrete math, etc. but didn’t join the math team. He did research for fun, studied with a CS prof who he contacted (we have no connections) and after spending the summer writing a paper, decided to submit his work to the competitions. He did very, very well, but frankly didn’t care about awards. He was more excited that he’d found an interesting result and discovered that he liked teaching and presenting. He was also on the newspaper staff, philosophy club and danced. Teachers were kind, demanding and fair. He has kept in touch with many of them, and he goes back every fall to talk to the juniors and seniors about research.
I will say that S2’s IB program tended to have more stress and competition than the STEM program. We were frustrated that the teachers held students to incredibly tight deadlines, but it would take 6 weeks to get an English essay graded and returned. S2 spent 4-5 hours/night on homework, which is hard on a kid with ADD. In retrospect, I am not sure it was the best place for S2, though he enjoyed it and would do it again. However, the burnout from IB has had serious repercussions for him in college.
We offered structure and support (and lots of driving). They both took advantage of the opportunities they were offered. They have cousins and family friends in other parts of the country who do not have schools like the ones in our area, and know that these friends/family would have thrived in such an environment. We feel grateful and lucky to live here.
The IB diploma program is very rigorous and has so many additional requirements for graduation. Many students take Theory of Knowledge (Tok) as an 8th period class after school. My own D1 chose to complete the IB Diploma program and it was quite stressful at times with all the deadlines. For her HL classes she chose science and math and is now studying engineering in college. For the SAT exam she studied with books purchased from Amazon as well as some online tutorials and information from CC because she couldn’t fit an SAT class with her busy summer schedules and working on the IB thesis.
@xiggy, so I called the parents of my godson who is at TJ right now. Guess who pushed their son to attend it? Not the boy; he didn’t know what TJ was before the application process. Not the parents, they had heard of TJ but assumed their son would go to his neighborhood high school. The person who pushed him to attend TJ was his 7th/8th grade math teacher, and the middle school adviser, both of whom felt the boy would thrive in a demanding STEM environment. Turns out both these middle school professionals regularly recommend certain kids for TJ, and have a bit of an “in” with TJ - probably because the kids they’ve pegged have gone on to do quite well at TJ.
I’m just citing this anecdote to show you that there are roads that lead kids to TJ other than parental schlepping.
Such a competitive high school! Why, that is the question!
What made her to make up such story should be the “center” of the issue!!!
This is quite insulting. This thread was started about a single student who lied about dual admission to Harvard and Stanford. I return to my point that you cannot project the actions of an individual onto the thousands of TJ students who did not lie, cheat, or snap under pressure. A single point does not reflect an entire population.
xiggi, what is your point? You have written that TJ has a toxic environment and the students there are products of test mills or are driven to the point of a nervous exhaustion by parents obsessed with ‘prestigiosity.’ Have you ever actually been to TJ?
- Are there TJ prep courses? Yes - but not every TJ student takes them. There are actually students who >gasp!< do NOT take prep courses to get into TJ. My S2 is one of them. His application essay was about his love of surfing, snowboarding, & rollerblading. He was not a spelling bee king, a math/chess guru, or a science fair genius. He was a 3-season athlete who played on 2 soccer teams and lived & breathed World Cup. His senior statistics project analyzed data about the NFL draft.
[quote]
Kids do not drive themselves to those activities. They are schlepped to them
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Yes, there were carpools until he got his driver’s license - but the same is true of any other HS. After he got his DL, he drove himself around the Beltway to school & athletic practices. - Are there students who attend because of parental pressure? Yes - but believe it or not the majority of TJ students are there because they WANT to be there. They are talented, quick, & motivated learners, and they draw energy and inspiration from their classmates & faculty. The students who are there because of their parents often leave after freshman or sophomore year. My S2 attended TJ because his 8th grade math teacher convinced him to try it & if he didn't like it, he could always transfer out. The decision to attend was his alone. He did not apply to a single Ivy. In fact, his years at TJ were a more formative experience than his college years. He loved TJ & remains in touch with his HS classmates. This is not the unhappy product of a "toxic environment."
- Is TJ a pressure cooker? Sometimes. Junior year can be quite intense. But the same is true of many other high schools.
- Is TJ a perfect school? No - it has its flaws, as you & many others are quick to point out. But there is no such thing as a perfect school. Most critics have not set foot inside TJ. Do yourself a favor: visit the school & talk with the students before you make sweeping generalizations about it.
As is often the case, two conflicting things can both be true. It can be the case that many, or maybe most, students at TJ didn’t go to prep academies, and are there because their family made a reasoned decision that it was the best choice for them. On the other hand, there may be many (probably not most) students at TJ who did go to prep academies, and who were pressured by their parents and their cultural environment to go there. I would say that this is a pretty good argument for not depending on a single test in determining admissions to any competitive program.
For what it’s worth, we would NEVER have had our kids take private prep classes in order to get into the magnet programs in our county.
GuineaGirl makes a point that I’ve made before in connection with selective colleges: kids who have to work really, really hard in order to get the grades and scores to get admitted probably don’t belong there. Similarly, kids who have to go to intensive prep and study a zillion hours for the TJ test probably don’t belong there. The kids who belong there (and who belong at highly selective colleges) don’t have to work that hard for grades and scores.
Except in the long run, it is a hard work ethic that gets you through life, not natural born aptitude. So, people who work hard and get the grades deserve it just as much as those natural born geniuses. Otherwise, we’d be teaching people the wrong lesson: that having no work-ethic gets your places. And that’s false.
Well, the people who belong at places like TJ and the most selective schools work hard at their self-directed extracurricular activities, which they have time to do because they don’t have to work that hard at their studies. I think this fact is difficult for some folks to grasp, and as a result some of them make the mistake of forcing really bright kids to “study” more than they need to at the expense of extracurriculars that would make them better candidates for selective programs. A similar mistake (in my opinion) is making a kid practice a musical instrument for hours and hours each day when the kid doesn’t have the talent to be a first-rate player, at the expense of other activities in which the kid has more interest.