College Comparison VIb: Minority Graduation Rates-BLACK STUDENTS

[interesteddad]

<p>

Sometimes it’s the opportunity cost of not earning money while in school, money the family may desperately need to pay the rent and the light bill and to feed the younger siblings and pay for Mom’s pharmacy prescriptions.

</p>

<p>Or, low income families are often single-parent families. Mom gets sick, there’s nobody to help and the college student ends up going home. There’s just no safety-net. </p>

<p>I do agree with Xiggi, though. It is true that the richer the college, the more likely students are to graduate. Of course, the two corollaries are inseparable. The richest colleges have the richest students.</p>

[hawkette]

<p>Bc,
Some of your suggestions in # 20 about how to pair the information with other considerations are good. However, your comments illustrate my belief that individual users will use this data differently and will apply their own experiences, values, and needs to it. I could create many variations off of this data set and others could do the same to suit their interests. If you think that you have a helpful and insightful way of re-ordering and presenting the data, then have at it. </p>

<p>IMO, I think that the presentation here is useful for black students and others interested in comparisons. In many cases, I see such data as a “starting point” rather than a conclusion. </p>

<p>For example, for black students looking at schools across the country, I think that most would appreciate knowing how their ethnicity has performed at ABC College and how this compares to the graduation rate of the college at large. </p>

<p>If there is a noticeable discrepancy, then a student might want to investigate further. If I were a black student (or a college administrator), I would definitely want to understand why a college is graduating its overall student body at a rate significantly different from that of black students. </p>

<p>IMO, a 10%+ differential is significant. You can choose the level that you think is appropriate and make your case. But my values guide me to the view that if schools have minority recruitment as a goal, then I think that there should also be a moral obligation to graduate its minority students at a rate similar to the rest of the student body. And if they’re not doing that, I’d like to investigate and understand why.</p>

[ChoklitRain]

<p>

But my values guide me to the view that if schools have minority recruitment as a goal, then I think that there should also be a moral obligation to graduate its minority students at a rate similar to the rest of the student body.

</p>

<p>College students are adults. They earn their diplomas. Affirmative action gives many minority students a shot at attending a college they wouldn’t have otherwise had, but nobody should be working to “graduate them.” What you’re asking for is a lifetime of special privileges. Next we’ll read your thread about how Goldman is lacking “diversity.”</p>

[willmingtonwave]

<p>Very interesting. Thank you again hawkette.
I am glad, and not surprised, to see Wake Forest score so highly. It really irks me when people criticize Wake Forest for being a white rich kids school. This helps emphasize that Wake Forest University is a more accepting place than is generally perceived.</p>

[modestmelody]

<p>

It really irks me when people criticize Wake Forest for being a white rich kids school.

According to IPEDS, for the 2006-2007 school year:
6.5% Black
2.25% Hispanic
5% Asian or Pacific Islander
3.25% unreported or unknown
83% White</p>

<p>That’s about as white as a school can get. It may be “accepting” to those 6.5% black people in that the graduate successfully, but there could be a whole host of reasons why in this white-washed environment this success may not be all that remarkable.</p>

[willmingtonwave]

<p>

According to IPEDS, for the 2006-2007 school year:
6.5% Black
2.25% Hispanic
5% Asian or Pacific Islander
3.25% unreported or unknown
83% White</p>

<p>That’s about as white as a school can get. It may be “accepting” to those 6.5% black people in that the graduate successfully, but there could be a whole host of reasons why in this white-washed environment this success may not be all that remarkable.

</p>

<p>We are conscious of this, but it still annoys me that we suffer from this stigma. We are making strives, for example the class of 2013 is comprised of roughly 25% minority applicants. </p>

<p>For the Fall 2008, the IPEDS says that Wake Forest reports 99% of Wake Forest students. William and Mary does not report 16%, UVA does not report 9%, Vanderbilt does not report 15%, Richmond does not report 10%</p>

<p>Furthermore, Chapel Hill is 71% White, Davidson is 74% White, Notre Dame is 77% White that is pretty much a wash.</p>

<p>You can refute that point easily. </p>

<p>Plus, while I think diversity is good, how much do you sacrifice standards in the name of diversity? I do not want to expound on this, because I don’t want to have an AA debate, but you get the point.</p>

<p>A final point, your Brown University, the epitome of everything liberal and just in the world, has the same amount of African-American students as Wake Forest, which closed in the Civil War, because so many students were fighting for slavery.</p>

[modestmelody]

<p>I don’t think Brown is perfect, I don’t think it epitomizes liberalism, and I don’t think it epitomizes justice. I wasn’t writing about Brown, or William and Mary, or UVA.</p>

<p>I was simply saying that graduating your 6.5% Black students at solid rates does not suddenly make your school not a place where students are overwhelmingly and disproportionately white.</p>

[IBclass06]

<p>

@willmingtonwave

We are conscious of this, but it still annoys me that we suffer from this stigma. We are making strives, for example the class of 2013 is comprised of roughly 25% minority applicants.

Agreed. Many view this as the reason Wake Forest dropped the SAT/ACT requirement.</p>

<p>It should be noted that much of the applicant pool at Wake Forest is local (i.e. Southeast), and thus it is forced to compete with Duke, UNC, and UVA for URM applicants. I think it does rather well.</p>

[willmingtonwave]

<p>

I don’t think Brown is perfect, I don’t think it epitomizes liberalism, and I don’t think it epitomizes justice. I wasn’t writing about Brown, or William and Mary, or UVA.

That was more hyperbole :)</p>

<p>

Agreed. Many view this as the reason Wake Forest dropped the SAT/ACT requirement.</p>

<p>It should be noted that much of the applicant pool at Wake Forest is reasonably local, and thus it is forced to compete with Duke, UNC, and UVA for URM applicants. I think it does rather well, considering.

</p>

<p>I think this is true of any University, the demographics will be reflective of where the university is. For example, North Carolina and the Southeast in general do not have large Asian or Hispanic populations. I think we need to be aware of that.</p>

<p>As for the SAT drop, yes that certainly was an underlying reason, but also our applicants went up from 7,000 to over 10,000.</p>

[modestmelody]

<p>You’re right that there is no considerable Hispanic or Asian community, but the African American community locally is quite large in NC and the surrounding states.</p>

<p>I’m not even judging WFU as doing poorly, simply saying, when the population is so predominantly white, why are you surprised that people think of it as a place where white people go? Especially when it’s quite white compared to the surroundings? I’m sure many Providence natives feel this way about Brown and probably should.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

For kids from low-income families, sometimes it’s not the out-of-pocket cost of the school that’s the driving factor. Sometimes it’s the opportunity cost of not earning money while in school, money the family may desperately need to pay the rent and the light bill and to feed the younger siblings and pay for Mom’s pharmacy prescriptions. The opportunity cost of four years in school is a huge hidden cost of higher education that middle-class and affluent families simply assume away, and one that no financial aid program addresses. Yes, the poor too might benefit from investing in higher education and foregoing present earnings; but when the wolf is at the door, that investment may look like a luxury you can’t afford.

</p>

<p>Again, this is true but perhaps not to the extent it is purported to be. Fwiw, it is a point that has been made in the past on CC, especially by Mini. </p>

<p>In the areas of grey versus black.white, one could note that the ability of students to earn subtsantial money while in high school is limited. In general terms, we talk more about earning to cover their own expenses as opposed as contributing to the welfare of other siblings. </p>

<p>Please understand that I am not diminishing the plight of students who are facing large economic hurdles. The entire financial aid system is based on the tenet that the financial responsibility of sending a student to colleged rests on the students AND their parents. While it is possible to eliminate the parental contributions to zero, it remains totally impossible to merge the education of a child with increased welfare for the parents or single parent. </p>

<p>At the end, it is because there are so many intangibles that are factored in the graduation rates that such metric (and the asinine expected graduation rate used by USNews) that what we have is a totally WORTHLESS datapoint. And especially when used as a proxy to determine the excellence or efficacy of education at colleges in our country.</p>

[willmingtonwave]

<p>Another problem is that with the Financial Aid system is the strains on the Middle Class. The poor get the majority of FA and the rich can already pay for their education, it is the rest of us that are left out.</p>

[chaosakita]

<p>It’s interesting that the major private university there that doesn’t use affirmative action has the largest positive gap between black and white graduation rates.</p>

[sybbie719]

<p>The information posted is not “new” information as it could have been easily accessed through the Journal on Blacks in Higher Education or even a search for black graduation rates on CC as the information has been presented over the years for anyone who was really looking for it.</p>

<p>[Black</a> Student College Graduation Rates Inch Higher But the Large Racial Gap Persists](<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/preview/winter07preview.html]Black”>http://www.jbhe.com/preview/winter07preview.html)</p>

<p>According to the JBHE:</p>

<p>Five of the nation’s highest-ranked colleges and universities actually have a higher graduation rate for black students than for white students. According to the latest statistics from Mount Holyoke College, Pomona College, Smith College, Wellesley College, and Macalester College, a black student on these campuses is more likely to complete the four-year course of study and receive a diploma than is a white student. JBHE has not been able to identify the reason for this anomaly at these five institutions, which is markedly inconsistent with nationwide statistics. But it is interesting to note that three of the five institutions are women’s colleges.</p>

<p>Why are black graduation rates very strong at some high-ranking institutions and considerably weaker at other top-ranked schools? Here are a few possible explanations:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Clearly, the racial climate at some colleges and universities is more favorable toward African Americans than at other campuses. A nurturing environment for black students is almost certain to have a positive impact on black student retention and graduation rates. Although often troubled by racial incidents, Brown University is famous for its efforts to make its campus a happy place for African Americans.</p>

<p>Many of the colleges and universities with high black student graduation rates have set in place orientation and retention programs to help black students adapt to the culture of predominantly white campuses. Mentoring programs for black first-year students involving upperclassmen have been successful at many colleges and universities. Other institutions appear to improve graduation rates through strong black student organizations that foster a sense of belonging among the African-American student population. The presence or absence of these programs may have some impact on graduation rates.</p>

<p>Geographic location unquestionably plays a major role in black student graduation rates. For example, Bates College in Maine is located in a rural area with a very small to negligible black population. The same holds true for Grinnell College in Iowa, Oberlin College in Ohio, and Carleton College in Minnesota. Black student graduation rates at many of these rural schools are lower than at colleges and universities in urban areas. </p>

<p>The presence of a strong and relatively large core of black students on campus is important. </p>

<p>Under any circumstance, a college education requires huge amounts of money. Not only are there very large outlays for tuition, books, and travel, but, even more important, going to college takes a student out of the work force for four or more years. The total bite into family income and wealth can amount to $160,000 or more per student. High and always increasing college costs tend to produce much greater hardships for black families.</p>

<p>Deep financial pockets enable some schools to provide greater financial aid than others. And this is a major factor in student graduation rates. Well-funded universities such as Princeton, which has the nation’s largest endowment per student and probably the nation’s most generous financial aid program for low-income students, will undoubtedly claim an advantage in black student retention and, subsequently, in producing high graduation rates.

</p>

[confidentialcoll]

<p>graduation rates must be compared within majors at a college, because I’m sure certain majors are more difficult to graduate from than others. If black students self-select into majors that are easier to graduate from, then they’ll have a higher graduation rate, the university however is not necessarily doing anything to affect this. By pure randomness alone, you’ll have a few universities where black students have self-selected into these majors which are easier to graduate from, there will also be universities where they might have self-selected into majors more difficult to graduate from widening the perceived racial gap. We need to look at graduation rates by race within a specific major at a specific school, this would be complicated to summarize.</p>

[UCSDJake12]

<p>

It’s interesting that the major private university there that doesn’t use affirmative action has the largest positive gap between black and white graduation rates.

</p>

<p>As someone else said, Caltech’s sample size is about 7. If it were a bigger university the rates would be equal without AA.</p>

<p>Also, don’t forget athletic recruiting. Berkeley and LA don’t have affirmative action but they do have Division 1 sports as well as “soft AA” where they admit students from tough backgrounds.</p>

[sybbie719]

<p>

graduation rates must be compared within majors at a college, because I’m sure certain majors are more difficult to graduate from than others. If black students self-select into majors that are easier to graduate from, then they’ll have a higher graduation rate, the university however is not necessarily doing anything to affect this. By pure randomness alone, you’ll have a few universities where black students have self-selected into these majors which are easier to graduate from, there will also be universities where they might have self-selected into majors more difficult to graduate from widening the perceived racial gap. We need to look at graduation rates by race within a specific major at a specific school, this would be complicated to summarize.

</p>

<p>Now change the word black for the word white and the same premise holds true as the majority of students in any major -with the possible exception of African American Studies are going to be white.</p>

[DukeAlumnus2003]

<p>How are athletics played into the equation? Are African-American athletes included or excluded in the admission and graduation numbers?</p>

[chaosakita]

<p>

Five of the nation’s highest-ranked colleges and universities actually have a higher graduation rate for black students than for white students. According to the latest statistics from Mount Holyoke College, Pomona College, Smith College, Wellesley College, and Macalester College, a black student on these campuses is more likely to complete the four-year course of study and receive a diploma than is a white student. JBHE has not been able to identify the reason for this anomaly at these five institutions, which is markedly inconsistent with nationwide statistics. But it is interesting to note that three of the five institutions are women’s colleges.

</p>

<p>I think that it might be reflective of the generally higher success of female blacks compared to their male counterparts.</p>

<p>

As someone else said, Caltech’s sample size is about 7. If it were a bigger university the rates would be equal without AA.

</p>

<p>I only learned that after I saw the OP. Whoops.</p>

[BigMike3541]

<p>With regards to majors, my general observation has been that most (african) american students select out of the more difficult majors pretty early on. If someone isn’t graduating I imagine its less often because they are trying to do physics/chemical engineering/etc but rather that they are just having trouble with college in general.</p>