College Expat?

Student Lounge International Students
1

Hi everyone! I am a current high school junior from Los Angeles, California beginning my college search. I know that there are many opportunities available to me as a student int he United States, but I am also considering studying in Scotland at either St. Andrews or Edinburgh. I know a lot of you will question why I would forsake amazing American universities to go abroad, so let me tell you a little bit about myself. I have always been very global, my favorite classes at school are languages (Spanish and French), history, and international relations classes, and I travel a lot. Traveling is one of the only things that keeps me happy and I even run a growing travel blog that has already gotten a couple sponsors. Furthermore, I have always loved international relations and I am certain I want to go into international relations, law, or business when I grow up. As I am relatively certain regarding my goals for the future, I would like a streamlined college education with fewer core classes and more focus on students’ individual areas of interest. That is one reason I like colleges in the UK.

My primary factors in making a college decision are as follows (not in order of preference):

  1. Good academics
  2. In a city
  3. Good social life
  4. Easy and relatively cheap to travel around region
  5. Has a strong international relations program
  6. Will allow me to continue studies in French (bonus if I can complete a double major)
  7. Not near California
  8. Very strong alumni network
  9. Good living accommodations
  10. Research opportunities
  11. College will provide good networking and will look good to future employers
  12. College has a Model UN program
  13. College will allow for good internships
  14. College has a good advisory program and career center

The alternative to studying abroad for my entire college experience would be to study in the States and then take my junior year abroad. Again, I am very global, independent, and I love taking risks. My primary concerns about going to college abroad are about networking and coming back to the US after college. Will I be able to compete with my peers that stayed in America to study international relations? Will American employers take me seriously? Will I be able to get into top US colleges to earn a Master’s Degree? Will I be able to build a strong network in the US?

If anyone who sees this is a current foreign student or recent grad of a UK university, it would be so helpful if I could email you and hear an insider’s perspective.

Thank you so much! I know this post was long and exhaustive, but this has really been on my mind lately.

2

My reply to another thread:

If it makes any difference to you: I am an American living/working overseas. My kids and my American friends’ kids return to the US for college because that’s what makes the most sense.

As far as eschewing schools in CA is concerned, what’s the big deal? CA is a HUMUNGOUS state. You can fit a dozen states in the area of CA. You’d be foolish (if you need money) not to consider the top quality public schools in CA.

3

First, can your family afford it? St. Andrews is over $51,000/year.

4

Yes- price is a non-issue in America or abroad

5

Regarding the 1st comment, a big decision-making factor nowadays is location, and it is my choice whether I would like to stay in my home state or not. I tend to prefer private universities on the East Coast or in Chicago, although I have toured schools in California, the Midwest, and on the East Coast. I wouldn’t say having a personal preference makes someone “foolish” :slight_smile:

6

Stating that you are excluding schools because they happen to be near CA is not the same point as stating that you prefer the East Coast.

Because I dont want brocoli, it doesn’t follow that I want carrots.

7

If you want to argue and call me foolish, that’s fine. It’s pretty much implied that if I don’t want a CA/West Coast school, then I prefer the other parts of America. Also, brocColi has two Cs, but no big deal.

8

Full disclosure: I was very, very close to attending the University of Edinburgh. Ultimately I chose to attend an American university instead, though it was a difficult decision. My input:

At least on the east coast, people are going to know what the University of Edinburgh is. My high school sends a few kids there and to St. Andrews each year. Coming back, the kids have no major problems. A Scottish degree is relatively similar to an American degree (in that it is a four year program) and isn’t going to confuse employers the way a three year degree or a degree from a less well-known country might. The tricky part is that you won’t have the same resources/alumni network for job hunting as someone that went to an American university. I will say that you will DEFINITELY have to work harder than someone who went to an American university of equal standing. The big companies and Wall Street, etc aren’t going to be recruiting there either, so if you want in on that game, this isn’t the path for you. And, of course, I know a few people that got married to their British classmates or found a job (though this can be tricky, as GMTplus7 has mentioned, depending on the country) in the UK and stayed… if you are a dual EU or Swiss citizen, barring a “brexit”, you could get a residence permit with relative ease. If not, it’s an uphill battle if you fall in love and want to stay.

If you want a masters, I would say if you plan on attending an American university for the graduate degree (as that is the more important of the two for employment purposes) it would be a safer choice. At least in my case (as a full-pay student), it would have been tremendously cheaper to go to a UK university (actually, cheaper than attending my own state flagship would have been). However, the nature of your post sounds to me like you’re more interested in getting a job straightaway. In that case, the edge is going to go to American universities for recruiting, networking, and internships.

Ultimately, I really don’t think, from what you want, that a UK university would be the best place for you. Shameless plug for my own university: you sound like someone who would like Tufts a lot. Aside from the distribution requirements (which are easy to fulfill, especially with AP credit), Tufts has a lot of things you’re looking for:

  1. Global focus and incredible IR program, 40 percent of students study abroad
  2. In a city (Somerville is a city in its own right and Boston is a T trip away).
  3. Good social life
  4. Easy travel (via Amtrak or busses)
  5. Lots of students double major
  6. About as far from CA as you can get while still being in the US
  7. Has lots of research, internships in Boston, good alumni network and career center

Maybe you’ve checked it out already, but if not, I would take a look.

9
  1. Good academics
  2. In a city
  3. Good social life
  4. Easy and relatively cheap to travel around region
  5. Has a strong international relations program
  6. Will allow me to continue studies in French (bonus if I can complete a double major)
  7. Not near California
  8. Very strong alumni network
  9. Good living accommodations
  10. Research opportunities
  11. College will provide good networking and will look good to future employers
  12. College has a Model UN program
  13. College will allow for good internships
  14. College has a good advisory program and career center
  1. In a city: drop St Andrews
  2. Double major with French: Edinburgh- French & Politics
  3. Alumni network: not a thing in the UK the way it is in the US
  4. LOL - what's good? probably not going to be as comfy anywhere in the UK as the US
  5. Research in IR as an undergrad is going to be hard the UK
  6. Good networking- again, not the same in the UK as the US
  7. Good internships- UK can be better- internships are paid- but it depends on what kind of internship you are looking for. Tbh, GWU is probably the best school I know for IR internships.
  8. Good advisory program- UK advising is not the same as the US. Career centers are good but again not as service-oriented as the US.

All top US IR masters expect a couple of years of experience, which you will get from the internships you do during college.

One way to split the difference is the St Andrews/William & Mary joint program, in which you spend 2 years in each place- but neither school is in, or even near, a city.

In the US, you might look at GWU, Tufts, JHU, NYU, Princeton, Harvard, Yale, American, Georgetown.

In the UK, consider Edinburgh, Oxford (no IR- usually PPE) OR Cambridge, and LSE

You might find the [Sciences Po/UCL dual degree program](Undergraduate College) interesting:

2 years at Sciences Po (Dijon, Nancy, Poitiers, Paris or Menton Campus) + 2 years at UCL
Focus on the social sciences at Sciences Po, including a major European language 
Students choose one of 5 majors at UCL - economics, history, international relations, law, philosophy or politics
Programme in English, French or English/French

But be aware that European universities do not hand-hold or provide the same kinds of service to students that you might be expecting. They expect you to be adult and independent and figure out most things on your own.

10

@Qwety568- thank you so much for sharing your experience. I have looked into Tufts and am definitely considering it due to its prestigious IR program and location. I come from an extremely competitive school though, so while I have good grades, extracurriculars, and test scores, it may not be enough to get me in.

11

@collegemom3717 thank you so much for your thoughtful reply and suggestions. The Sciences Po/UCL program is one that I haven’t heard of before, but I’m very excited to research it

12

So we don’t know your profile and stats, but anyway, while I know next to nothing about IR, here are some IR rankings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_the_Ivory_Tower

Of course what jumps out is that 2 of the DC schools (GWU and American) aren’t super-selective yet are in the top 10 among undergrad programs. UMich may be a possibility as well. Looks like some of the UC’s are highly ranked as well, but if they are out and the super-reachy Ivies/equivalents/near-Ivies are unlikely, it’s GWU or American (possibly UMich/UVa/W&M) or bust.

You could consider Edinburgh as well (St. Andrews is in the middle of nowhere), but as @collegemom3717 noted, the alumni network and advising just aren’t going to be the same level as at American colleges.
I believe that GWU has a strong network in DC, but you’d have to research.

13

I do recommend looking into the Joint Degree program especially if you are interested in international relations. William & Mary has an excellent reputation for international relations. It has many opportunities for undergraduate research with travel, chances to publish in an undergraduate international relations journal, and a world-class Model UN team which wins awards at WorldMUNs each year. It is well versed in international relations and you have the opportunity to intern at the Institute for the Theory and Practice for International Relations which is right next door and the Project for International Peace and Security (PIPS) is a highly regarded think-tank program on campus where you actually present policy proposals to people on capital hill. Graduates of this program have gone to top-notch graduate programs and done amazing things since graduation,

On the other hand, like I am sure you are aware, St. Andrews is popular place for international relations and has a strong program there itself. I think one of the advantages of this approach is that you will avoid the problems that @Qwerty568 mentioned because you will be earning a dual degree from both institutions. Therefore you would give you all the advantages of a U.S. university (alumni connections - there are plenty, U.S. name recognition, and recruitment opportunities) meanwhile you have the strong degree from St. Andrews which has strong name recognition and connections in Europe. Students who have taken part in the program have also mentioned they have received unique opportunities because their experiences set them apart from other students. It’s the best of both worlds. However keep in mind that it is for the strongly independent student that doesn’t mind splitting their time among two universities. Because of the nature of the program, you will also be taking half of your courses in the traditional American format and the other in the format that they take place in the UK, so it may take some adjusting to. But the program sounds like it could be a good fit to you, and I highly encourage you to apply if you are interested!

14

What @Qwerty568 said is wise and should be heeded.
I’d put Edinburgh and St. Andrews (and UCL and KCL) on par or in between UMich/UVa/W&M/UNC, but if I am an American looking to work in the States, I would choose any one of those American schools over any of those UK schools.
The W&M joint program is worth looking in to, but besides that, if you have an American school at the level I listed as an option, I’d only consider Oxbridge or LSE as better, and each of those are probably as hard to get in to as an Ivy/equivalent (though their selection criteria may be pretty different).

BTW, @MYOS1634 probably could say more, but I’d expect the instruction at Sciences Po to seem pretty horrible to an American.

15

@PurpleTitan thank you for advising me! As for my scores, I will have taken 12 AP/Honors courses by the end of high school (at my school they count for the same), I got a score in the range of 33-35 on my ACT, will most likely score highly on 2 out of 3 of my SAT II’s, and have so far gotten a 5 on my AP Euro test (waiting to hear back from other tests). I also hold a lot of leadership positions, participate in a lot of ECs, and have placed nationally in French. Still, for my insanely competitive school, my GPA (around 4.04) is not high enough.

16

@shawnspencer I have heard about the program and after reading your comment, I’m very excited to further research! I am highly independent, so it does sound like a good fit. :slight_smile:

17

It still makes sense to try for some of the Ivies/equivalents. Unweighted GPA is usually the GPA looked at, BTW.

18

And certainly apply to 5 of Edinburgh/St. A’s/Oxbridge/LSE/UCL/KCL and make a decision after you have choices. All except Oxbridge & LSE may not be that difficult to get in to if you have a bunch of 5’s (and maybe even some 4’s) on relevant AP’s.

19

I’m fairly certain you cannot apply to both Oxford and Cambridge in the same year.

Important note: OP, remember that grades are completely irrelevant in UK admissions. When I applied to Edinburgh I didn’t even send a transcript, just a personal statement, a list of APs I was currently taking, 1 recommendation, and my AP/SAT scores. Based on this, you’ll get either an unconditional offer (you’re in), a rejection (you’re out) or a conditional offer (something along the lines of "you’re in if you get a 4 or 5 on AP calc AB, depending on the subject you applied for and the APs you’re taking). This means it’s possible you won’t know if you’re accepted or not until early July after your senior year when AP scores come out and have committed to another university. This is the norm in the UK but may seem a bit extreme here in the US, where you are expected to put down a deposit by May 1. It’s akin to a waitlist but with more pressure on exam performance. How are your AP scores?

20

To OP, while you said cost is not an issue, you should be aware that if money from a 529 College Savings Plan is being used to pay for the overseas university, that university must have a FAFSA code. If it doesn’t, you’ll pay hefty taxes on the funds. You can go on the FAFSA website and search under “Foreign Country” to see all the universities that have FAFSA codes. Once you get outside the Anglophone zone of countries, the number of universities that maintain a FAFSA code drop off a lot. DD will be attending Amsterdam University College in the Netherlands, who maintains a FAFSA code, but a number of well respected Dutch universities (like Leiden) have dropped their participation.