From the Fencing.net board:
The poster clarified “top 10” as referring to the particular class year, filtering out those above (already in college) and those below (high school junior and less).
As a junior in high school (16 years old, birthday in July so this is my last Cadet season) I was wondering if there are any school with top academics but weak fencing. I have a 36 ACT, class doesn’t rank but easily top 5% in a class of ~800, will have 15 AP classes/multivariate calculus done by graduation with a current cumulative GPA of 3.95 UW, and have a laundry list of other ECs and awards that aren’t really super relevant right now. I’m interested primarily in chemical/biological engineering, but might end up majoring in anything. (considering econ maybe)
My coach is well-known in the US and has connections at a lot of NCAA schools, but I started fencing two years ago and don’t really have any notable results yet. (There isn’t anyone else at my club graduating in my year, so there isn’t really internal competition there) A couple of years ago, he got a girl from my club onto an NCAA team that is known for very very strong fencing, despite her being a U and not having any notable results, so this may potentially help me. (?)
If I could work my way up to a USFA C/D by the end of this season with academics/other ECs that are much better than most fencing recruits, would I have a shot at getting a letter of support (highly doubt I’d be recruited, but that would be nice, too!) from a coach at, say, Stanford/Princeton/Duke/Yale?
What would I need, fencing-wise, in order to have a chance at something like that? I’ve noticed that there are strong academic/strong fencing schools and weak academic/strong fencing schools, but are there any strong academic/weak fencing programs that I don’t know of? I’ve heard Brown mentioned, but Brown has a huge humanities emphasis, so its engineering programs are significantly weaker than my state schools’. Also I’ve heard that the average of all recruited students’ AI has to be within one standard deviation of all regular students at some universities, so could a school potentially take someone who’s really really good, but lacking academics, and someone like me in order to balance it out?
Based on what I’ve seen, others’ experience and my conversations with (some, not all) coaches at elite schools, here’s my assessment.
Assuming you get up to a C or B, but not A / Top 15 ranking for the HS graduating class of 2017:
Stanford: very unlikely for saber, given the very large existing team of men’s sabrists plus at least two more HS juniors/seniors who have the inside track for class of 2020 & 2021. Better odds for épée and foil.
Duke: unlikely. Small-ish squad, with relatively fewer spots each year than Stanford or Yale.
Yale: probably your best bet, given a) the coach’s very strong emphasis on academics, b) fewer games played than at other schools, and c) Yale College’s intense push to attract more engineering majors. Probably the best Econ program of these three should you decide to major in Econ.
Given your interest in chem/bioengineering, UC San Diego, which has a varsity fencing program as well, should also be on your shortlist.
I’m sure you’re aware of the world-class caliber of UC San Diego’s bio and chem engineering, which is why San Diego is ground zero for biotech startups. UCSD probably has as many if not more undergrad research opportunities in the field as any of the above schools, and is almost certainly a better program than Yale. UCSD’s Econ department is nowhere near the same caliber as Yale or Stanford’s, however.
@thibault thank you so much for the information! Can’t believe I forgot to mention what weapon I fence-- I’m a foilist. UCSD is on my list and I would definitely fence there, I just completely forgot they have a team. What about Princeton or Penn? Sherpa once said Duke/Stanford/Princeton usually carry largish rosters so there are usually some walkons, so I went off of that.
Princeton’s roster is very small, as are Penn’s and Harvard’s. Duke’s is not much larger.
Stanford’s is one of the largest; as a foilist, you may have a shot. Coach is tough to reach, though.
UCSD seems to me like your best bet.
Neither has a very large fencing team, but given your intended major you should look at Johns Hopkins and UNC (home of the latest Nobellist in Medicine & Biology) as well.
Brown supposedly has a very strong neuroscience program but Brown’s engineering programs generally are less renowned.
If your interest is in the sciences/engineering, perhaps you should consider:
MIT
Cal Tech
JHU
Stevens
UNC
UCSD
You may also want to consider:
Haverford
Brown
although academically these schools may not be a perfect fit with your current interests (which may change).
I am assuming you are a male, but if you are not, you should also consider:
Cornell
Northwestern
Temple
If you want to consider club programs, Dartmouth has a strong club and a decent engineering program.
Of the programs you mentioned (Princeton/Yale/Stanford/Duke/Penn), it would be hard to imagine any of them
taking someone without national level fencing recognition. However, according to this recent announcement from Yale:
http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-fenc/2015-16/releases/20150808r8z167
at least one new member of the team has never competed, ever. He must have some other strong attributes…
Also, if your coach is well-known, perhaps he can make some inquiries for you. Our club coach’s relationships with the college coaches was very helpful for our son.
Will you be competing in this season’s remaining NACs and will you be at SN in June?
Yes, potentially this could happen, but I believe it would be unlikely without a couple significant national results.
I see Yale, Princeton, and Stanford as very unlikely. I can see you getting a little help at Duke, and with an otherwise strong application, a little help might be enough.
Have you considered Haverford, Vassar, or Brandeis?
If you’re female, Cornell is a realistic possibility.
Thanks for all the help! (@thibault @superdomestique @sherpa ) I plan to go to a few NACs and SN in June, but I’m not 100% sure on those.
I’ll look into all those schools, thanks! I’m male, so Cornell/Northwestern aren’t really on my list for fencing reasons. (Though I may well end up applying for academic reasons)
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“Also, if your coach is well-known, perhaps he can make some inquiries for you. Our club coach’s relationships with the college coaches was very helpful for our son.”
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I’m also realizing now that my club coach actually has a pretty large impact on how this all works out, so maybe I’ll ask him about where he could help. I know he’s friends with coaches at Penn, Duke, Stanford, and OSU, so maybe at those, I could get a little bit of help?
I’m fairly confident that I would be a competitive applicant at most places even without fencing (3.95UW/36 ACT + published by one of the most famous/recognizable publishers worldwide + national writing awards + lab research + political/econ internship + eagle scout + full scholarship to spend the summer abroad + president/founder/captain of multiple clubs, etc.) But since admissions is such a lottery I was kinda looking for a little help that would push me into the “yes” pile rather than being just another “qualified to attend but who knows if we’ll accept him” kid…plus I love fencing (even though I’m not really a natural or a prodigy) and I’d love to fence in college.
So hopefully I could get a small push from Duke (based on Sherpa’s comment) or Yale (superdomestique) or maybe Stanford (thibault) but each comment said that the other two options would be very unlikely haha.
Stanford is definitely my number one dream school…so hopefully @thibault was right 
But I’ll definitely check out MIT/JHU/Brown/UNC/UCSD and more. Thanks again!
Ooh wait one more question – when should I start contacting coaches and how? (Especially like MIT/JHU where there’s more potential for me to fence, rather than S/Y/D where my coach would probably be using his connections)
I figure the recruiting questionairre won’t help me, since I don’t have results. So do I call? Email? I honestly have no idea.
Dear Sherpa, seven dad, Epeemom, and superdomestique
When a coach gives " supporting letter" to support a fencer as walk-on, how much influence does this letter carry? Or how much advantage the fencer could have at admission because of this letter?
My guess is not so much comparing to recurring athlete LL. This letter might work as the evidence to AO that student’s fencing as one EC is outstanding, which could be spotted out by AO even without this letter given his A2015 fencing rating. Please correct me if I am wrong.
For a ED school, I guess this supporting letter will have same influence during ED round and RD round. Would we make the conclusion that the different chance of admission between ED and RD is merely Due to ED advantage, but not the impact of this letter. There is still the chance to negotiate the same letter from coach for RD.
I am heavily rely on financial aid for his college education. we have received near 80% of FA plus loan (10k for 4 years) for his private high school, in additional to the money took out from refinancing my home at his 9th grade, and over 20k credit card debts for his fencing. It is very likely my employment will change due to insufficient funding in an academic research institution, but I will only know if it is a hour cut or eliminatiom of the position or I can get another job by March 2016.
so it is very uncomfortable for me to commit to any ED school without the chances to compare financial aid packages between all the schools after March 2016. My son and I never thought to apply for any ED school. Our original plan was 3 EA schools only.
If you are in my shoes as parents , do you think it is wise decision to apply for this school ED school, just because this supporting letter for walk-on ?
It is a top 20 college (private) with good fencing program, but just no one has been on my radars for ED. Will definitely applying it during RD, along with other 6-7 schools in order to get the best FA & scholarship. My son’s academic profiles is very strong and our safe school is state university where has his favorite subjects ranking (15th-18th ) no lower than this top ED school. He has very high chance to get full ride in state university if he is not admitted to other top private universities. Of course, if he admitted in this private university RD and with reasonable FA comparing to others, he can still choose it as his top choice.
please kindly share your view with us.
Many thanks
@anaman - I don’t want to be overly discouraging but I would like you to understand why I believe Yale and Stanford are unlikely.
First, Yale: Coach Henry H. is a reluctant, unenthusiastic recruiter, at best. My son was highly ranked on the junior and senior points lists, was internationally ranked, and had a sky high AI (higher than Yale’s average for both athletes and non-athletes), but Henry was noncommittal when we visited. Also, the novice fencer mentioned in the article is a junior, so clearly he wasn’t recruited.
Stanford: Coach Lisa M, who I happen to like a lot, doesn’t need to deal with AI averages, so being a “booster” won’t help you there. More importantly, Lisa has been very successful recruiting strong fencers the last few years; while I’m sure she’d welcome you as a walk on, I doubt she’d spend any of her limited pull on recruiting you.
Keep in mind that these coaches hear from scores of rated fencers every year and can only spend their clout on a few.
The reason I think the Duke coaches might be more able to help you is that they are less constrained than the Ivies in the number of fencers they can support, or so I’m told. While an Ivy coach might hit their recruiting limit and then be unable to help even an academic/athletic superstar, I believe the Duke coaches are relatively free to flag for admissions help more applications of strong students who would like to fence for their team.
As for when and how to contact coaches, in your case I’d recommend you introduce yourself and tell your story by either phone or email late in your junior year, right after the NCAA fencing season is over. That way they won’t be distracted by their immediate coaching duties and will be relatively inactive as they wait for July 1st, when they can get into full scale recruiting for next year’s class.
Good luck!
@bluesky2015 - You are asking interesting and difficult questions. I hope some of the other experienced posters weigh in too. It seems that FA will be very crucial to your family’s decision. Does this school “meet full need” for accepted applicants?
Thanks again @sherpa ! That would be in the context of recruiting, right? Or do coaches also have limits to the number of athletes they can support without using a recruiting spot? (letter to admissions, etc.)
@sherpa
This school said to meet full need but give significant less (10k?)!than other schools according to their financial caculator.,
@anaman - One Ivy coach told me that once he’d met his recruiting quota his hands were tied. I pressed the question, asking about a hypothetical situation of an excellent athlete with stellar academics, such as an AI above that of the general student body. He said that, even in that case, there would be nothing at all he could do to help the applicant. I didn’t specifically ask if he could at least write a letter of support, but the implication was that once he’d met his recruiting quota that he was completely powerless.
According to your information below, can I assume the coach who will provide " supporting letter" for walk on , has already reached the quota, and this supporting letter will not provide much power at admission?
This make me less want to be cornered financially by an ED application purely due to this letter.....
@sherpa
One Ivy coach told me that once he’d met his recruiting quota his hands were tied. I pressed the question, asking about a hypothetical situation of an excellent athlete with stellar academics, such as an AI above that of the general student body. He said that, even in that case, there would be nothing at all he could do to help the applicant. I didn’t specifically ask if he could at least write a letter of support, but the implication was that once he’d met his recruiting quota that he was completely powerless.
is this an Ivy League school?
@bluesky2015
As it is past November 15th, aren’t your questions about EA/ED moot if your son is a senior this year?
Unfortunately the limitations of applying ED is that you do not get to compare and contrast different FA offers. That being said, the Ivys are generally pretty consistent and generous with their financial aid packages for those who truly demonstrate need.
While I believe that walk-ons do happen all the time, personally, I do not believe the “letters of support” carry much weight with admissions. For every one poster on CC that says they were successfully admitted with the help of a coach’s letter of support, there are many more applicants who had these letters who did not get in (and have not shared their disappointment on CC).
@Anaman
With your academic record, it is likely that you may be a competitive applicant at many of the academically-elite schools. However being athletically-recruited at any of these schools is a completely different conversation.
Is your lack of national fencing results due to limited participation in NAC/SN events, or unheralded results at these events?
If the former, you still have time to earn some points and you should try to go to as many competitions as you can.
If the latter, you should get your coach to make some inquiries with the college coaches for you, not only about your future potential, but to also provide some commentary about your attributes as a potential teammate (work ethic, attitude, etc.).
As for when to make contact, this process requires patience. You have to remember that most coaches have just finished their LL recruitment for the class of 2020 and their current fencing season is just beginning. This is a very busy time for college coaches.
While most emails will not be answered, with your academics, it may be worth lobbing in an initial correspondence now with a one-page resume and your ACT score and UW GPA at the top of the page. The reason I say this is most coaches at academically-elite schools do not want to waste any time with a fencer they cannot get thru the academic preread. Your initial correspondence should get your “file” started.
After this initial email correspondence, I would meet with your club coach to discuss what schools are realistically viable for you for fencing. Your club coach needs to be aware of the schools you are most interested in so over the course of competition travel to and from NAC and WC events, your coach can meet/interact with the college coaches off the strip when prospects are inevitably discussed.
You should probably not start calling college coaches until late in your junior year and these calls should specifically be to schedule your post SN meetings. You should be aware that the majority of the recruitment decisions are made in the days and weeks after SN (before your senior year). If a college coach is not aware of you in early July before your senior year, it may be too late.
As I said before, your academic and EC records are likely to be more than adequate to be competitive at any school. However, unless your club coach can make a strong case for you, in the absence of national results, fencing may not be an admissions hook for you.
However, as a walk-on, anything is possible. Some anecdotal thoughts on the different programs:
Stanford: Coach Lisa tends to run a larger squad and in recent years has taken some fencers who had excellent academics but lesser fencing results. In the two cases I know about, both of these fencers had B level ratings when they applied and their academic and personal characteristics were outstanding.
Yale: As evidenced in this year’s roster announcement of the men’s fencing team, there is a freshman on the team who has never competed nationally, so anything is possible. Coach Harutunian is very disorganized, but that may be to your advantage as a walk-on.
Princeton: Unlikely. Coach Dudas has said he as more trouble finding academically qualified saber fencers compared with foil and epee. Your lack of national results and top academics would be more of an advantage in saber. The foilist’s at Princeton are pretty accomplished academically and mostly ranked in the top 10 nationally in fencing.
Duke: It is my impression that Duke is more willing than the Ivy schools to take more accomplished fencers with less stellar academics rather than taking less accomplished fencers with stellar academics. I could be wrong.
Penn: Coach Ma has his favorite clubs he likes to recruit from. If yours is one of them, that could be good. You need to get your club coach involved.
Brown: Coach Tass never seems to have enough pull with admission for the fencers he wants to recruit. This could be advantageous for walk-ons.
Personally, I think MIT, CIT, JHU, SIT, UCSD are very viable options if you want fencing to be a hook in the admissions process.
As @sherpa said, Vassar, Brandeis and Haverford are worth considering.
Hope this helps. Let us know how it goes.