Fencing future?

Athletic Recruits
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<p>I'm currently a A10 ranked men's sabre fencer. My best results have been Top 8 at 2010 Junior Olympics and 2nd place at 2010 Summer Nationals, both in Cadet. I begin fencing junior next year.</p>

<p>Stats (currently in Junior year of high school):
2200 SAT
4.7 unweighted (5.0 for AP, 4.5 for Honors), 4.0 weighted GPA
1/360 class rank
800 Chemistry SAT II, 780 on Biology and World History SAT II
5s on AP Biology and Chemistry exams, 4 on AP World History (no idea how ha)</p>

<p>My question mainly consists with what to do with my fencing. My priority, however, is academic - I'm wondering as to the correct course of action to maximize the influence of fencing (I'm looking mostly at top-tier Ivies...) on admissions.</p>

<p>Thank you in advance.</p>

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<p>Burger,</p>

<p>Congrats on your classroom and fencing accomplishments. I strongly urge you to reach out to all your targeted schools to introduce yourself to the fencing coaches NOW. I would also like to suggest that you attend one of the fencing meets to determine if that is the level of competition you seek. You want to develop a rapport and dialogue with the coaches regarding your interests and goals. They have ALL the answers, and you have many questions. My understanding is that only 5 Ivys participate in fencing, so that shouldn’t be too much to do. </p>

<p>Research each schools fencing program. Find the coaches name and email address. Draft a letter of introduction and discuss some of your achievements and goals. Many thousands of recruited athletes have done this over the years. Regular communication with coaches will become an everyday event in the coming year for you if you pursue this. This is part of the “package deal” when you become a recruited athlete. Ask your parents to help you get started if you feel uneasy about it at first. Over time, you will feel much more comfortable. </p>

<p>Also, your academics are very good. I would expect them to be very competitive for Ivy admission or any other school. When you talk to any coach, ask him about his influence in the recruiting process. I would fully expect (Ivy) fencing to have recruited athletes, but the question is how many. </p>

<p>There is a lot of wisdom on this site. Please let us know how you progress.</p>

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<p>I’m sure Sherpa will chime in soon and tell you everything you need to know. He’s been there, done that. You’ll be fine with your academic and athletic stats. Meanwhile, suggest you do a search for ‘fencing’ on this site and get started.</p>

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<p>How on earth does one obtain a 4.7 unweighted GPA? o_0</p>

<p>EDIT: Oh, never mind. :)</p>

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<p>Congratulations!</p>

<p>You’re doing great, both academically and with your fencing. Two "top 8"s in recent national events
wow!</p>

<p>A 230+ AI
double wow. That may be a record for a sabreur. In case you are unfamiliar with AI scores, click this link [Academic</a> Index3 - College Confidential](<a href=“http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index3.htm]Academic”>http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index3.htm) to compute yours; I predict it will be at least 230 or more likely 235, either of which is over the top for an athlete in any sport.</p>

<p>I’m not joking when I say that may be a record for a sabreur; historically sabre has been the toughest weapon for Ivy coaches to recruit. For some reason, foilists seem to have the best academic credentials, followed by epee, then sabre. I’ve heard theories that attribute this to the personality types that are attracted to the various weapons, but who knows? A few years ago an Ivy coach explained to me his frustration that none of the top 20 high school senior sabre fencers that year were academically qualified for his college.</p>

<p>You’ve positioned yourself to be recruited by and supported through admisssions by the fencing coaches at any of the top academic schools that have fencing (except MIT, more on that in a minute).</p>

<p>Among the Ivies, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brown, Columbia, and Penn have men’s fencing, and Stanford and Duke are good schools with fencing, too. For any women fencers following this, add Cornell and Northwestern to your list of top academic schools with fencing.</p>

<p>MIT also has fencing, but MIT is famous for their coaches’ inability to deliver with admissions.</p>

<p>I’ll give you my school by school thoughts on the programs and coaches, and then follow with my overall advice.</p>

<p>Harvard [GoCrimson.com](<a href=“http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mfencing/index]GoCrimson.com[/url]:”>General - Harvard University):</a> I can’t comment favorably on the coach, but I can tell you they have a good fencing program (men were 2nd in the Ivy League last year) and their fencing room is among the best in the league. Eric Arzoian is a sabre freshman there this year.</p>

<p>Yale <a href=“http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-fenc/yale-m-fenc-body.html[/url]”>http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-fenc/yale-m-fenc-body.html&lt;/a&gt; is a little strange. The fencing gym is in an incredible gym that looks like a cathedral. The coach, in my opinion, is a few years past retirement age, and is a little tough to read in recruiting. Let me put that differently. He doesn’t recruit. If you decide you want to go to Yale, you’ll need to work hard to get his attention and help but, in the end, I’m pretty sure he’ll deliver.</p>

<p>Princeton [-</a> - GoPrincetonTigers.com - Education Through Athletics 
 An Unmatched Tradition of Athletic Success.](<a href=“http://www.goprincetontigers.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10600&KEY=&SPID=4262&SPSID=46855:]-”>http://www.goprincetontigers.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10600&KEY=&SPID=4262&SPSID=46855:) Nicest fencing gym among the Ivies. Reigning Ivy Champions. Great head coach. You probably know the sabre coach, Hristro Hristov, who refs sabre at most NACs, JOs, and SNs. I can’t say enough good things about the school, the program, and the coaches.</p>

<p>Brown <a href=“http://www.brownbears.com/sports/c-fenc/recaps/012509aaa.html:[/url]”>http://www.brownbears.com/sports/c-fenc/recaps/012509aaa.html:&lt;/a&gt; You probably know Brown’s head coach, Atilio Tass, a sabre ref and bout committee member on the USFA national circuit. Brown’s fencing is a bit weak, but Tass is a sabre guy, and he’ll surely want you.</p>

<p>Columbia [-</a> - GoColumbiaLions.com—Official Web Site of Columbia University Athletics](<a href=“Fencing - Columbia University Athletics”>Fencing - Columbia University Athletics) I think head coach George K. is a great guy, and I hear he has a lot of clout with admissions. Most Columbia fencing is off campus; I guess when you’re in the middle of the best city in the country for fencing, you train with the best the city has to offer even if it’s a subway ride from campus. Their fencing gym is a dungeon, but who cares?</p>

<p>Penn [Men’s</a> Fencing - News - PennAthletics.com—The Official Website of University of Pennsylvania Athletics](<a href=“http://www.pennathletics.net/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=1700&KEY=&SPID=607&SPSID=10605]Men’s”>http://www.pennathletics.net/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=1700&KEY=&SPID=607&SPSID=10605) has new coach, Andy Ma, a foil guy, he’s well-liked by most. Their fencing room is lame, split between two bad spaces, but so what? A CC kid a few years ago, with academic and fencing credentials weaker than yours, was able to get a Wharton acceptance with fencing help.</p>

<p>Duke [-</a> - Duke University Blue Devils | Official Athletics Site - GoDuke.com](<a href=“Fencing - Duke University”>Fencing - Duke University) Great facilities, super nice coaches, friendly, family-like team dynamic. Becca Ward (Olympic medalist sabreur) is there and would be an incredible training partner, but I think she’ll graduate before you’re in college.</p>

<p>Stanford <a href=“http://www.gostanford.com/sports/c-fenc/stan-c-fenc-body.html:[/url]”>http://www.gostanford.com/sports/c-fenc/stan-c-fenc-body.html:&lt;/a&gt; Fencing program almost got chopped last year, but is hanging on on life support. Nice facilities, nice but scattered coach has pull with admissions, but not as reliable as most of the coaches at the schools listed above.</p>

<p>Now for advice: You’re in great shape, and I like your “academics first” approach. Research the schools from an academic standpoint and rank them in your mind. Then try to visit them all this year, maybe during your spring break. First, I’d prepare a one-page resume, highlighting your grades, scores, and fencing highlights, and call the coaches to schedule a casual “unofficial” visit to meet them as part of your college visit. Offer to email them your resume beforehand, and bring a copy when you visit, too, in case they need a gentle reminder of how admissable you are.</p>

<p>Don’t be surprised if a coach offers their support with admissions in your first meeting; realize that a nationally ranked sabreur, academic superstar is a rare commodity, so they will all want you.</p>

<p>After you’ve visited all the target schools, you’ll probably know where you want to go. Play your cards close to the vest with your second and third choices, but don’t hesitate to tell your first choice school’s coach that you’re leaning his way.</p>

<p>One other thing. In a post above, somebody suggested you introduce yourself to the college coaches, which is good advice, but be aware that they are already watching you. Your 2nd place finsh at SN did not go unnoticed. You’re on their radar. As soon as your academic credentials are known, you will be a very hot commodity.</p>

<p>One more “one other thing”. Be known as a nice kid. Don’t kick your mask or refuse to shake hands when you lose. If you’ve already established yourself as a good kid or a bad kid, so be it. But if you’re a relative unknown, be aware that there will be a lot of eyes on you this year at the NACs and JOs, and you want to be thought of as a kid people want on their team.</p>

<p>Again, Congratulations!</p>

<p>You’ve put yourself in a position to choose among the best colleges in the country. Keep up the good work.</p>

<p>And let me know if there’s any way I can help you.</p>

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<p>sherpa, that has to be one of the most generous, informative, encouraging posts I’ve ever seen on CC. Kudos.</p>

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<p>Sherpa, Mr Ma is mainly saber coach who also happens to be very good at coaching foil. Agree about the fencing rooms though, although I heard a rumor that they were getting a new one. I don’t know how much truth there is to this though.</p>

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<p>No kidding, what a wealth of helpful information - definitely CC at it’s best</p>

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<p>^^absolutely varska! I know nothing about fencing, and I found sherpa’s post to be both really interesting, and educational - the best example of CC help and support :)</p>

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<p>I echo what’s been said in the few posts above me - that was a wealth of information, and essentially answered every question I had (and could possibly have had!). I thank you for the kind words and optimism, but I wouldn’t wish to get too ahead of myself - I’m not in yet.</p>

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<p>A tome to end all tomes.</p>

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<p>Tastyburger - There is so much more I want to tell you. I’m really impressed by your accomplishments and especially your humility (“I wouldn’t wish to get too ahead of myself - I’m not in yet”), so I’ll be rooting for you through the process.</p>

<p>And thanks, river, varska, mayhew, and ihs for the kudos; that’s gratifying. Truth is, I’ve been waiting for an opportunity like this to share my knowledge of fencing admissions. As ihs said, “been there, done that” with DS, and doing it again this year with DD.</p>

<p>So a few more thoughts for the OP:</p>

<p>Rosters - Team rosters are probably all online now on the team websites. It’s easy and helpful to make a simple chart of the MS (men’s sabre for the uninitiated) fencers and their graduation year at each school, to see which teams will be most in need of your talents. If school X has a strong MS contingent graduating in the next two years but a weaker freshman and sophomore bench, you know they’ll be looking to refill the pipeline.</p>

<p>But don’t necessarily gravitate to where you think you’ll be most needed. As one coach told me as he was aggresively recruiting in an already strong weapon: “not only do I want him on my squad, I don’t want him on the other guy’s. I don’t want to have to compete against him.” A further advantage of going with a stronger MS team, obviously, is greater training opportunity. I sat in on a practice at DS’s school last year and the level of talent blew me away. Of course I’d seen the rosters, but to be in that room watching them fence was simply amazing. They were training co-ed but seperated by weapon. Epee in particular was eye-opening. Three or four strips rotating in and out, with practically every matchup strong: USFA world team members, national champions, world cup medalists, plus the occssional B or C walk-on.</p>

<p>Another thing to keep in mind, roster-wise, is that NCAA fencing is completely different from USFA. Forget the 15 touch DEs you do now. It’s all 5 touch bouts. Take a typical dual meet, say Harvard vs. Yale. H and Y will each field a team of nine per sex, so 3 MF, 3 MS, and 3 ME, and every fencer fences each of the other team’s fencers in that weapon. So if you’re on H’s MS squad, you’ll fence three 5 touch bouts against Y. They’ll schedule multiple dual meets the same day, so a big day might have you fence nine 5 touch bouts, but probably less, since they’ll bring 4 on the travelling squad and rotate the alternate in against the weaker opponents. Contrast nine 5 touch bouts on a busy NCAA day to a medal run at a NAC: six 5 touch pool bouts, five or six 15 touch DEs, simply no comparison. The point, roster-wise, is that every team needs to have 3 or 4 strong fencers in each weapon at all times. Ask Columbia. Last year they were short in MF, and at one of the Ivy duals, their top guy was at a WC in Europe and their #2 guy was on academic probation. They substituted some weak epeeists in foil, but is was ugly; against Princeton, as I recall, they didn’t win a bout, and scored only 3 touches all day. So to keep 3 to 4 good fencers per weapon at all times, coaches need to recruit every weapon every year.</p>

<p>I’ll stop for now. I don’t want to post another “tome”. But I’ve got a lot more thoughts to share. I’ll keep it coming. Ask me some questions. I enjoy this.</p>

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<p>Oh, also, thanks kungpao for the clarification. My focus is foil and I’ve seen Mr. Ma coach foil so much that I just made the assumption, so thanks for the correction.</p>

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<p>Sherpa, Great information. Every fencing parent should read this information before they begin their search. Thank you for sharing. I will refer all my fencing parents to your post.</p>

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<p>I recently received a PM from a parent asking about fencing recruiting. With her permsission, and for the benefit of anyone else interested, I am posting the question and my response here.

</p>

<p>My first advice is to not focus exclusively on Ivy League schools. Only six of the eight Ivies have men’s fencing, and there are a number of other elite schools that offer fencing, too. In addition to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, and Brown, please also consider Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Brandeis, UNC Chapel Hill, Haverford, and Vassar.</p>

<p>Rather than “getting into an Ivy”, I think the focus should be on finding the school that is the best academic and athletic fit for the student.</p>

<p>How good one must be to get coach’s support will vary by college, coach, weapon, and year, as well as the student’s club coach’s reputation and connections and the applicant’s academic qualifications. There have been instances in recent years of “B” rated fencers getting the push at HYP, and there are many, many “A” rated, highly nationally ranked fencers who don’t have the grades and scores to have a chance at the top schools. Generally speaking, though, I think one should probably be in the top 25 or so on the junior points list to have a decent shot at a competitive program. I need to be careful with my wording here. By “competitive program,” I mean competitive fencing team, not competitive admissions-wise. An unranked “B” or “C” might ride coach’s support into an academically competitive school with a weaker fencing team. Another way to look at it, again generally speaking, is that in any given year probably the top five or so HS senior fencers in each weapon who meet the Ivy academic threshold will be able to get an Ivy coach’s support.</p>

<p>It sounds like your son is academically on track for one of the better schools. Earning his “B” will help with recruiting, especially if he earns it at a national event. As much as a new rating would help, earning national points would help more. Another thing that could greatly help is if his new coach is well respected and well connected. At Summer Nationals one year I overheard a college coach ask a club coach friend of mine something like: “I’m short in men’s foil this year. Who’s good and available?”</p>

<p>That says a lot. The college coaches don’t have time to watch a lot of non-college events. Many seem inherently lazy. They can look at ratings and rankings, but that doesn’t tell them everything. So it makes sense that if their old buddy Coach X drops a name, that kid has the inside track.</p>

<p>They say in fencing, and it’s probably true in other “minor” sports, that “you have to recruit yourself.” For all but the best, that’s probably true. I would think this is especially true at the academically more competitive schools with relatively weak fencing. Take Vassar, Johns Hopkins, and Brandeis as examples. Excellent schools with very competitive admissions. Their coaches probably assume they have very little chance at snagging a superstar athlete, and they have no way of knowing which HS senior fencers are academically qualified for their schools. I’m speculating here, but I’d expect that any of those coaches would respond enthusiastically to an inquiry from a “B” or “C” rated academically strong fencer.</p>

<p>I’ve come full circle here. It comes back to fit. Your son may be at a highly recruitable level a year and a half from now. Keep trying, and good luck, but better, I think, to be targeting academically suitable schools where his fencing can raise his odds from 20-25% to 90-100%.</p>

<p>Good luck, and feel free to ask more questions.</p>

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<p>Sherpa—Do you think fencing helps if you aren’t a recruit? </p>

<p>Since there is a limited number of schools that offer fencing, would the fact that you have dedicated and committed to the sport and have excellent grades/sats and EC’s be a big enough factor in addmission to an elite school?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>

I believe that a dedicated commitment to any sport at an unrecruitable level is probably viewed as just another EC, not particularly better or worse than singing in a chorus, volunteering at a soup kitchen, or working a part time job. </p>

<p>But don’t despair. It is not as difficult to be recruitable as I may have led you to believe with my last post. It really depends on a combination of factors: the fencer’s skill level, the fencer’s academic qualifications, and the target colleges.</p>

<p>Your 10th grader seems to be on a good path, with solid academics and a current epee “C” which might soon be a “B”.</p>

<p>Recruitable at HYP, Penn, Columbia, or Brown? Probably not. </p>

<p>Stanford or Duke? Possibly, depending on their needs that year.</p>

<p>Recruitable at Vassar, Haverford, Johns Hopkins, or Brandeis? Almost certainly at least one of these, very possibly all four. And those are four very good schools, schools with relatively low acceptance rates, low enough that lots of academically qualified kids are turned away every year. “B” or “C” level fencing can make a difference for an applicant to those types of schools, and they’d probably end up being more of a star on the team there, too.</p>

<p>Recruitable at MIT or Caltech? Probably, but the coaches there can’t really deliver for their recruits, so probably not worth the effort.</p>

<p>There are others, too, each with their own story.
Are you in California? UCSD.
Interested in the military? Air Force Academy.
Want a LAC? Vassar and Haverford as I noted above, or Lafayette or Lawrence.</p>

<p>Bottom line, there are a lot of good colleges with fencing teams, and most good fencers aren’t academically qualified for most of these colleges. Those who are academically qualified and want to use their fencing as a boost to get into a good school just need to aim wisely, which often means aiming just below the top.</p>

<p>Good luck to your son, and don’t hesitate to ask more questions.</p>

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<p>to join in the fencing conversation
how about winning a div 2 nac and in top 25ish on the (cadet) points? is that near recruitable? I’ve been in the 64s at the 2 div 1 nacs ive fenced (if only i had points!). with a good result at jo’s and high gpa and sat’s (already done) should I bother contacting harvard etc. coaches or should I just try to apply and write it on my app that I fence?
edit: b10 at the moment we.</p>

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<p>What Sherpa ‘The Man’ said.</p>

<p>I don’t know if its been mentioned before or not, but Div I/II/III is not an issue in fencing as they all fence each other routinely in meets. </p>

<p>One advantage of being on a ‘lesser’ team is that a “B/C” fencer will likely be on the ‘traveling squad’ and go to all the meets where they may face top college fencers. On the best teams, however, they likely will not be on the travel team. OTOH, the best teams will have the more intense practices. </p>

<p>My B/C son has no high aspirations but is enjoying being on his less intense fencing team at an academically intense school. He doesn’t even seem to mind getting creamed by the top fencers at the meets. I know at his school that recruited athletes are accepted at >80% rate (ED) vs 20% for overall. His coach will gladly recruit a B/C level fencer, esp Saber or Epee for next couple of years.</p>

<p>And for the record, I saw somewhere that recruited athlete admit rate at MIT is 30-35% which is far above their <10% general admit rate but still nothing to hang your hat on. Can’t vouch for the accuracy of the number but it looked interesting. </p>

<p>Muskrat: You should definitely contact the coaches, and before the JOs I would say. But I’m sure The Man will fill in the details of what you should do.</p>

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<p>Muskrat - You’re on track for sure. Winning D2 at a NAC is awesome. Best way to earn a B, I think. Your cadet ranking puts you on the radar. I don’t follow WE closely, but I’m sure top 64 D1 finishes are fairly rare for a U17. That’s great. How have you done in Junior?</p>

<p>Are you a HS junior? </p>

<p>You should definitely start talking to the coaches no later than at Summer Nationals after your junior year. They can definitely open doors for you. It’s always fun to watch the not no subtle recruiting going on at SN. Some coaches are easily approachable earlier, others aren’t. For details, if you have specific questions, send me a PM.</p>