<p>Mini: You addressed this obliquely in our last post, but the statistics showing more drinking in upper classes really don’t address the forbidden fruit argument, or at least not all of it. Underage drinkers may be tempted by the fact that it is illegal, just as weed may tempt some students because it is illegal. The fact that more people may adhere to the law, and then lose control when they can drink legally does not necessarily mean that those fewer underaged drinkers are not seeking the “forbidden fruit.”</p>
<p>I did talk to both my kids quite a bit about the problems with drinking and the dangers. I lost my temper when my son could not get past his first day in college without being caught by campus police, but other than succumbing to that provocation, was generally rational on the subject. He seems to have things reasonably under control having become much fitter and earned much better grades since his first semester.</p>
<p>I feel lucky given that we have friends who have had kids sent to rehabs during high school, etc. There is a range of alcohol and drug problems, and the O.P.'s son appears to be on the low end of them, as was my son’s adventure. </p>
<p>A freshman roommate of mine was taken out by our freshman counselor for his birthday a month into the first semester, and encouraged shots of tequila for every birthday. None of us knew about alcohol poisoning at the time, and my parents never talked to me about drinking or drugs, but just assumed that I knew better. He did not reach the stated goal, but did not recover for a brutal four or five days. Despite that indiscretion, the counselor was cool because he kept a promise to come join us for a dinner at our graduation. If we knew then what we know now, I doubt the challenge would have been offered or attempted.</p>
<p>My parents and older relatives modeled responsible drinking behavior and had frank discussions about drinking responsibility, especially considering the fact there was an older cousin in the family whose majoring in partying, beer, and girls caused him many problems…including near-expulsion multiple times during the '80s. Also, the sight of crack vials, discarded needles, and drug addicts in the neighborhood parks where I played softball and having a childhood friend caught in a crossfire between two drug gangs while walking home from middle school reinforced what could happen with drug/alcohol abuse/addiction. </p>
<p>To take out the supposed mystique of alcohol, my father had me try a glass of Tsingtao beer mixed with some sprite to get an idea of alcohol and its effects at 11. We then had a frank discussion about responsible and irresponsible alcohol use and how it affects each individual differently. Later, I took a required high school science elective which covered the biochemical effects of various drugs and alcohol on the human body. </p>
<p>As a result of all that, I actually was pretty dry for most of my undergrad years* and drink more nowadays…which isn’t much considering I only on occasion during social occasions such as parties or seeing live music at bars. Even then, I’d still opt for a non-alcoholic beverage most of the time due to my personal mood or the need to be engaged with serious work the following morning. </p>
<ul>
<li>Granted, it was probably made easier by the fact alcohol wasn’t the vice of choice at my LAC at the time I was there…weed and psychedelics were and was hard to miss. However, I didn’t feel a particular desire to be stoned or zoned out in some alternative universe at the time…my academic work did a very good job of that due to its sometimes engrossing nature to the point I actually forgot to eat for an entire Saturday once. However, I didn’t mind if others partook of those vices so long as they minded their own business by being as “live and let live” like myself.</li>
</ul>
<p>These campus fnes just encourage kids to move off campus as soon as they can…and in the meantime, party off campus. I don’t know what the answer is.</p>
<p>Mini;
I happen to find the fact that 14 year olds are now less likely to get alcohol because they are less likely to get it from 18-year-old high school students particularly compelling"</p>
<p>More young teens are likely to get their alcohol from their parents liquor cabinet or refrigerator then from an 18 year old,this is a fact</p>
<p>I’ve said this before, but when my son moved into his Penn dorm, EVERY student on his hall (girls and guys) had a fake ID and they were all comparing them.</p>
<p>True…very easy for kids to get fake IDs that look amazingly real. </p>
<p>From what I understand, they send 125 and a digitil pic to some place in Conn, and a very real looking DL arrives in the mail from the state of your choosing. There are other sources as well.</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Having a drinking age higher than the age of majority is illogical on its face. It is hard if not impossible to defend this policy to those affected. Having “non-sense” or “bad” laws runs a real risk of breeding contempt for the law in general in our young adults. </p></li>
<li><p>Older adults also can have contempt for “non-sense” laws. As a frequent business traveler to Canada and Europe, if I had a dollar for everytime I saw a U.S. businessman stuffing Cuban cigars into his briefcase or briefs I could retire. </p></li>
<li><p>The debate about this law is always mixed with the discussion of drunk driving. However, one must remember that back in the 70’s and early 80’s, a DUI was not treated with the severity that it is today - it was more like a serious speeding ticket. Canada strengthend its DUI laws about the same time as the U.S. but didn’t raise its drinking age. Guess what - deaths from DUI dropped in Canada by about the same percentage. </p></li>
<li><p>Once having “survived” under the U.S. policy, many of these young adults then see nothing wrong in supporting laws to deprive others of various rights or to restrict the activities of others. (e.g. mandatory seatbelt laws, mandatory helmet laws, etc.) While these laws are based on “good intentions”, remember what road is paved with good intentions. I contend that the founding of the “Nanny States of America” began with this law. </p></li>
<li><p>No other western nation has a drinking age higher than 18 (except for Canada where the age is either 18 or 19 depending upon the province) and many European countries are 16. At 18 you are free to travel internationally or renounce your citizenship - but you can’t have a beer. </p></li>
<li><p>Remember the States are soveriegn and the drinking age can only be set by the states or territories. Uncle Sam is restricted to using extortion (reduction of highway funds) to compel performance. The drinking age in Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands is 18 - they told Uncle Sam where to put his money. If the reduction of highway funds were removed, the drinking age would be lowered quickly in several states.</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think the surge in study abroad programs from nominal levels to approaching 40% of all students at many schools might be somewhat influenced by U.S. policy?</p></li>
</ul>
<p>To clarify…my son was caught the 1st time for being in the presence of alcohol in his dorm 50.00 fine (roomates are all 21, he is 20), 2nd time he was caught consuming alcohol in his dorm during a party 75.00 fine, the last time he was caught walking back from a party and was caught carrying a couple beers (stupid) by the campus security guards fine will be 100.00., he also received a citation from the local police based on them being on campus and in the same area that my son was stopped at (200.00 fine, Class 3 misdameanor). My son told me about each incident and was upfront and honest, he also called my daughter based on his concern about the police citation, I know he is very scared and knows he has been stupid (my wife and I are very upset with him). FYI-He is doing well in school (bus. major with B’s) and has generally been a well behaved kid. I plan to have a long talk about the situation when he comes home for the holiday break. He is well aware that he is responsible for paying the fines ect…</p>
<p>Q:
If under-21 students are living off campus, they would indeed be avoiding college on-campus fines.
But, why are they not even MORE worried about being caught drinking? Aren’t the consequences of being caught by a real police officer off grounds as an under-age even GREATER? Can stay in school with a crime on their record, or even communication of an offense from the local police?
And, what are the consequences of being caught with a fake ID?</p>
<p>There have been several fake ID threads. The consequences range from a bar just confiscating it to a felony charge. Depends on the jurisdiction. Usually the felony charge results in a deferred adjudication, community service and then, hopefully, an expungement. </p>
<p>Minor in possession charges are not particularly serious and rarely result in being kicked out of school. Again- usually a fine and some community service.</p>
<p>Drinking in a private residence carries pretty little risk.</p>
<p>‘Canada strengthend its DUI laws about the same time as the U.S. but didn’t raise its drinking age. Guess what - deaths from DUI dropped in Canada by about the same percentage.’</p>
<p>Follow the whole thing though in that the drivers licenses in Ontario (all of Canada is not the same) are now 3 three teared and even though my D can legaly drink we have absolutely ZERO tolerance for any blood alcohol content until their 22nd birthday. If found guilty of alcohol they lose their license. My D has NEVER enjoyed alcohol of any sort and does not drink and if she does she calls me to pick her up when she is home or she calls a cab while at college and will leave her car wherever she is. She will not drink and drive while in the States because the biggest fear she has is that she could lose her student visa, and therefore not be able to complete her studies. She is also an RA and takes her reponsibilities as such very seriously. Just this past weekend she did not want to attend a Christmas party being put on at a co students house because she hates being the only sober person there. My D is of age in both countries both finds the amount of drinking at her college campus unbielevable especially by underage students. We know her campus has expelled underage students for drinking offences (do not know how many times they were caught though) but it still goes on regularly. I do not understand how any one can defend underage drinking, or drinking to the point of intoxication because I strongly believe that these kids do not realize the affects a little alcohol can have on their reflexes, focusing skills and reaction time. Also in Ontario one neat law that I know has been inenforced is that if I have a Christmas party at my house and allow people to drink and they get into an accident on the way home I can be held legally responsible. As the host of the party you must be able to stop someone from driving under the influence. There is one law that wakes a lot of people up to their social responsibilities.</p>
<p>In Ontario it is not just minors, it is to anyone of any age. Because my D is of age she has been asked to buy beer for some of the minors at college and has always said no. Why would she jeoperdize what she has so that someone else can get drunk. The problem is that these minors see absolutely nothing wrong with it and get mad at her because she wont do it for them. She has been called some nasty names because of it and her car was keyed one night after a party but there is no way of proving who did it.</p>
<p>My DD’s school has very strict policies on underage drinking. If you are an education major and are caught with alchohol you are dropped from the program, on the first offense. Other majors it is the second offense and you are dropped from the major. I guess they are making it a point that there will be no rule breaking for those who will be teaching the future generations. My DD says it is not worth taking a chance and is not drinking until she is 21. An no I am not naive. She will not drink at all. She is a freshman dance major and says that alcohol is too hard on the body and she has to keep healthy at all costs. I have even tried to get her to try something and she tells me why would she want to put drugs into her body. Now, the french fries are a different story…</p>
affect of alcohol on ALL young persons’ brains, and esp when there is genetic predisposition to addictions
what we are teaching kids about not following rules and laws when we disagree with them, except when the penalties are strong enough to dis-incent
what we are teaching kids about being deceptive and the importance of just not getting caught
the impossibility of having a healthy more hand-on, real time dialogue and training experience with our kids on HOW to drink, and whether drinking is really even a good idea given their individual reactions to it</p>
<p>Yes this was all in one semester. FYI-He met with the school yesterday and they fined him 200.00 for his second offense, told him if he gets caught again underage drinking he will be on probation, another offense after that and your get expelled. Last year he had to live in a freshman dorm which was mandatory so no issues, this year he is in an on-campus apartment which gives my son, his roomies, and other students under 21 alot of freedom and a place to party hence the citations). My son said there were about 75 kids in the meeting (just from that weekend) so it seems like the school is really cracking down and hitting the kids where it hurts with fines. My son says the security is way over the top for a college with a stand alone campus, no real downtown or city for the kids to get off campus to. All the parties happen on campus and all students are required to live on campus unitl senior year. He did confirm that when you turn 21 things loosen up based on the students becoming of age and being able to drink on campus. If thats any consulation !!</p>
Well, how many of us routinely drive over the speed limit? Or fail to come to a complete stop at every stop sign? Do kids view underage drinking more like that, or more like, say, shoplifting in terms of morality? Not surprisingly, the consequences for violating the particular law may affect how seriously it’s viewed.</p>