I saw this last night as well. This case probably won’t even be heard before school starts, so they’ll be stuck with the rules in effect at that time and even if they can’t mandate the vaccine to attend school ultimately they can still mandate it for other things so it’s ridiculous, but I guess we will all see how it shakes out.
Also, the biggest issue I have with this, not so much that they’re suing, or that some have exemptions, is that they also are refusing to wear masks as a result of not being vaccinated. So they don’t care about protecting other vulnerable people. Someone else wearing a mask isn’t fully protected by someone who isn’t wearing a mask and has the virus as we all know.
Additionally, if someone refuses to get vaccinated (or can’t), and doesn’t do whatever they can to protect themselves (wear a mask), at what point should the cost of health care expenses related to covid if they get the virus come from them? I wonder if insurance companies at some point will mandate the vaccine in order to provide certain coverages. I know they can’t deny pre-existing coverage, but they can deny certain procedures. Also, will life insurance companies decline coverage for people who aren’t vaccinated, or perhaps just classify them as higher risk and thus higher expense? Lots of long term unresolved issues here.
I think we can come to a realization that vaccines work, prior immunity works and masks do not work. If masks worked the numbers would have gone down before the vaccine…but that never happened. I don’t see any reason for anyone who is fully vaccinated or had prior immunity to ever need a mask.
Apparently PA state universities will be requiring masks in classrooms in the fall because state law prohibits them from requiring students to be vaccinated.
Agree that those who aren’t vaccinated should still wear masks during the pandemic . . . but it is still a pandemic and while someone else might be better covered by that protection, they will never be “fully” covered - because we are still in a pandemic. Those who are medically vulnerable, as described by @ucbalumnus should (and most likely will) take their own special precautions.
Do insurance companies require vaccination for any related coverage - flu, for instance? I thought health plans rewarded good choices with a kick-back on your premium . . .
Yes, that’s definitely true for my kids’ school. Maybe it’s other laws. This article explains it better. Seems it isn’t just a matter of asking (usually ok for the employer) - it’s how you ask that can trigger problems. Colleges and universities are subject to at least some of the same laws (ADA for example)
The difficulty with masks is that the user can take them off at will. Not true with the vaccine. Most social gatherings that led to outbreaks were mask-less as well as large and in violation of social-distancing.
Masks work, but the vaccine is the most effective and that’s not even 100% effective, but at least you’re going to minimize how bad your case is going to be if you get covid.
@JBStillFlying Agree that medically vulnerable need to take extra precautions, but they can’t live in a cave so people who are not vaccinated because they choose not to be just “because” should also be considerate of those who “cannot” be vaccinated and respectful. It’s really not that difficult to wear a mask for a few minutes or even a few hours. I have worn mine for 8 hours/day this whole school year. It’s not the best but it’s a lot better than getting the virus and/or being responsible for someone else getting it.
Never heard of any insurance company giving a kickback for flu shots or vaccinations, etc. They do cover those vaccines at no cost, but no reduction in premiums. Most group plans are fixed costs but companies may have wellness programs where they do “fun” types of things to encourage these things because a healthier company will keep premiums down in the future.
It is worth noting that masks do vary considerably in terms of:
Effectiveness at stopping the wearer’s contagious droplets from escaping (i.e. protecting others).
Effectiveness at protecting the wearer from others’ contagious droplets (i.e. protecting oneself).
Comfort, including under various conditions (physical activity, temperature variation, etc.).
Common cloth masks, especially if not well fitting or not properly worn, are probably only moderately effective at 1, somewhat less effective at 2, and may not be great at 3; their main advantage is washability and reusability. Surgical-mask-material masks tend to be better than most cloth masks at all three aspects, but cannot be washed for reuse after they get used enough. N95 and similar masks tend to do better at 1 (except for those with outlet valves) and 2, but may be worse at 3 (but outlet valves may help).
Medically vulnerable people now should be focusing on 2 over 1 when choosing masks.
We get a “rebate” on our premium through H’s company. You amass points for wellness visits, preventative screenings, being at a healthy weight/cholesterol/glucose, doing fitness challenges, etc… We can save $2000/year if we max out our points (which we actively do every year).
I don’t wear cloth masks and anyone who is vulnerable shouldn’t. None of the info that you posted is not anything that people haven’t heard before and should be following. There have been numerous studies on the effectiveness of various types of masks etc. Again, bottom line is people need to stop being selfish and care about others in anything they do but then again, not related to Covid, we know so many things where people are just kicking the can down the road for the next generation. Hopefully whether it’s masks or something else some people will just get a wake up call before it’s too late.
Speaking of medically vulnerable. With proper medical oversight most of these people can and should actually get the vaccine. Many are just too afraid to do it. That’s understandable to some degree but if they live in a low vaccinated community then they’re at much greater risk at getting and dying from covid than if they had the vaccine. But again, personal choice.
That’s awesome. Somethjng I bet if insurance companies advertised much more would probably get more people vaccinated even since so many people have been motivated by the littlest amount of $ to do so. It would also save the insurance companies millions of $ if people were vaccinated.
Institutions around here are making some accommodations so that people can, say, stand in the check-out line without bumping into someone else, or can sit at church in a special section, social-distance, and still participate. Not sure the basis of the accommodations (law or executive decision by the person in charge or what) but it’s happening. While vaccines are clearly a good idea, not all will be vaccinated and it’s impossible to expect that - even as institutions do things like make accommodations, require vaccine proof, and so forth. Ultiimately, one’s decision whether to “risk” being near an unvaccinated person or live in a cave is a personal decision. Public health measures are to protect the public health and we tend to leave those private decisions to the individual.
Those who got vaccinated, but are likely to have weak immune response due to known immunosuppression (e.g. some chemotherapy drugs, or drugs taken to prevent transplant rejection).
Those who got vaccinated, but find out from antibody testing that they have little or no antibody response. Some have tried getting vaccinated again with a different vaccine, sometimes successful, sometimes not.
Those who got vaccinated, but have other medical conditions that make a rare breakthrough case of COVID-19 a risk to be more concerned about than for the general population.
Note that all of the above groups are likely to be much more concerned about COVID-19 than the general population as well. The population of these groups at K-12 schools and colleges may not be as high as in places like nursing homes, but a school that is large enough has probably encountered students in the past with similar issues to other contagious diseases.
I’m well aware of medically vulnerable. I have a parent who is both a transplant recipient and who goes to chemo every 3 weeks among other health related issues, including heart issues. Can’t get much more immunosuppressed than that and every single Dr’s advice (and there are many) was to run not walk the minute the vaccine came out. Thrilled to get it so we can spend time together and she can have some normalcy as she battles terminal cancer. So I get it. But yes, as mentioned many times it’s a personal choice that many are not willing to take whether for legit personal or other ridiculous reasons but fortunately for them we live in a country that they have the choice. Many don’t.
But are such medically vulnerable people hesitant about getting vaccinated? Seems like such people would want to get vaccinated as soon as possible, since the risks and consequences of COVID-19 are likely to be worse for them than for the general public. They may realize that vaccination is more likely to give them only weak protection, but also realize that weak protection is better than no protection.
Do we actually have data to better understand that the protection is “weak?” I’ve read that anti-body tests aren’t an accurate metric for understanding degree of protection. In our state those in nursing homes (a population with indeed a higher percentage of vulnerable) were the first to be vaccinated and generally did so before the workers (many of whom opted not to, although that is changing over time. Facilities in our state do not mandate the vaccine for LTC employees). Cases among the vulnerable populations began to plummet in February of this year. The vaccine is working for them. Now, everyone is different and even if the risk is super low, that means nothing when someone actually contracts Covid and has an adverse outcome. I’m just wondering what people are using to inform their decisions on this matter.
the typical masks that people are buying off amazon - does not fit snugly and allows air to pass through definitely does not work.
My father works with dangerous chemicals and he has to get fitted and tested with masks that don’t allow anything to pass through. (there is a smoke test) the mask he needs to wear is not even close to COVID masks…and covid is a much smaller particle.
It’s not a matter of work/not work. Nothing is perfect. Masks HELP slow the spread of covid. They help better when used in conjunction with other measures, such as social distancing and avoiding long periods indoors with other people. Masks such as N95s that require fittings, definitely help more, but that doesn’t mean that regular masks don’t help at all
Vaccines appear to help even more, but even they are not perfect.
It’s not just neutralizing antibodies that are providing protection with these vaccines. The Janssen vaccine has a particularly good track record, so far, producing a killer t cell response. So even that traveller with zero antibodies didn’t necessarily get a failed vaccine. Here’s a good synopsis: