<p>I know this thread could get ugly, but in order to balance out the thread on colleges on the rise (USC, Indiana, Oregon got mentioned), what are some colleges that seem to be losing prestige?</p>
<p>Brown maybe?</p>
<p>Considering the increased number of kids going to college, it’s hard to say that any school is on the way down.</p>
<p>University of Michigan’s football program, however… :P</p>
<p>drop in SAT 75th percentile 2001-2006</p>
<p>Union College -68
Saint Johns University -55
Mills College -40
Drew University -40
Reed College -40
College of Saint Benedict -30
Wells College -30
Wabash College -27
Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus -20
Wofford College -20
University of Richmond -20</p>
<p>percent drop in applications 2001-2006</p>
<p>Iowa State University -1557 -14.6%
Hamilton College -334 -7.3%
Brigham Young University -556 -5.4%
Ohio State University-Main Campus -942 -4.7%
Michigan State University -1144 -4.7%
Millsaps College -42 -4.4%
University of Richmond -199 -3.5%
Connecticut College -135 -3.1%
Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus -226 -2.4%
Sarah Lawrence College -63 -2.3%
Trinity College -121 -2.2%
Wesleyan University -135 -1.9%
University of Colorado at Boulder -326 -1.8%
Georgetown University -257 -1.7%
California Institute of Technology -35 -1.0%</p>
<p>I don’t think drops in SAT say much. Especially 20 points. Maybe they’re taking more multi-dimensional applicants. I think Drew, Reed and the University of Richmond are popular at the local HS.</p>
<p>I’m surprised the OP would say Brown. I feel like its becoming more and more popular. At least at my school it is definitely the most popular ivy as far as the number of people applying.</p>
<p>increase in acceptance rate 2001-2006</p>
<p>school, 2001, 2006, change</p>
<p>DePauw University 53.0% 67.5% 14.6%
Pennsylvania State University-Penn State Main Campus 48.4% 61.6% 13.2%
Trinity College 30.0% 42.8% 12.9%
Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus 54.4% 66.6% 12.2%
Harvey Mudd College 33.9% 45.9% 12.1%
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 64.4% 75.4% 11.0%
Sarah Lawrence College 36.9% 46.4% 9.5%
University of Colorado at Boulder 79.2% 87.9% 8.7%
Boston University 48.1% 56.7% 8.5%
Muhlenberg College 35.3% 43.8% 8.5%
Michigan State University 65.1% 73.3% 8.2%
The College of Wooster 72.3% 80.3% 8.0%
New York University 28.5% 36.2% 7.7%
Purdue University-Main Campus 76.9% 84.6% 7.7%
Southwestern University 59.4% 65.0% 5.6%
The University of Tennessee 68.7% 74.0% 5.3%
Millsaps College 85.6% 90.5% 4.9%
Brigham Young University 65.5% 70.1% 4.6%
Texas A & M University 69.3% 73.5% 4.2%
Saint Johns University 85.2% 89.2% 4.0%
Knox College 71.6% 75.6% 3.9%
Mount Holyoke College 49.4% 53.2% 3.8%
Miami University-Oxford 74.3% 78.0% 3.6%
Tufts University 23.2% 26.8% 3.6%
Hollins University 81.1% 84.5% 3.4%</p>
<p>decrease in yield 2001-2006</p>
<p>Institution Name yield 2001 yield 2006 yield diff
The University of Tennessee 69.7% 47.1% -22.7%
New College of Florida 50.9% 33.5% -17.5%
DePauw University 39.0% 21.7% -17.3%
Birmingham Southern College 40.4% 23.3% -17.1%
Saint Louis University-Main Campus 34.8% 19.4% -15.4%
Bennington College 38.9% 24.5% -14.4%
Baylor University 44.2% 30.6% -13.6%
Willamette University 34.8% 21.5% -13.3%
Agnes Scott College 42.7% 30.2% -12.4%
Ursinus College 32.2% 19.8% -12.3%
Albion College 41.9% 29.9% -12.0%
Millsaps College 39.8% 28.2% -11.6%
Harvey Mudd College 33.7% 22.1% -11.6%
Tulane University of Louisiana 22.9% 11.3% -11.6%
University of Washington-Seattle Campus 57.0% 46.1% -10.9%
Hanover College 32.6% 22.7% -9.9%
Muhlenberg College 41.7% 32.3% -9.4%
Washington and Lee University 48.0% 38.9% -9.2%
Southwestern University 35.1% 27.1% -8.0%
Ohio Wesleyan University 33.0% 25.2% -7.8%
Fordham University 28.2% 20.4% -7.8%
Gustavus Adolphus College 40.9% 33.2% -7.7%
Rice University 41.8% 34.3% -7.5%
Principia College 66.7% 59.3% -7.4%
University of Minnesota-Twin Cities 45.8% 38.4% -7.4%
Miami University-Oxford 37.1% 30.0% -7.1%
Hollins University 42.1% 35.1% -7.0%
Amherst College 44.5% 37.8% -6.7%
The College of Wooster 31.3% 24.7% -6.6%
Austin College 38.8% 32.4% -6.5%
Occidental College 26.2% 20.5% -5.7%
Wheaton College 54.3% 48.6% -5.7%
Marquette University 28.6% 23.0% -5.6%
Beloit College 30.8% 25.2% -5.6%
Bates College 41.7% 36.1% -5.6%
Drew University 22.0% 16.6% -5.4%
Hope College 41.2% 35.8% -5.4%
Tufts University 36.6% 31.3% -5.3%
Smith College 42.3% 37.1% -5.3%
Wells College 27.1% 21.8% -5.3%
Pennsylvania State University-Penn State Main Campus 40.3% 35.3% -5.1%
University of Miami 31.8% 26.7% -5.0%
St. Olaf College 39.6% 34.6% -5.0%
Worcester Polytechnic Institute 28.6% 23.7% -5.0%
St Mary’s College of Maryland 37.4% 32.5% -5.0%
Wake Forest University 40.9% 36.0% -4.9%
University of California-Santa Cruz 22.1% 17.5% -4.6%
Saint Johns University 52.8% 48.4% -4.4%
SUNY at Binghamton 28.2% 23.9% -4.3%
Presbyterian College 43.3% 39.1% -4.3%
California Institute of Technology 41.6% 37.3% -4.2%
Oberlin College 35.8% 31.7% -4.1%
University of Puget Sound 24.1% 20.0% -4.1%
Sweet Briar College 44.4% 40.4% -4.0%
University of Delaware 35.3% 31.4% -3.8%
College of Saint Benedict 47.4% 43.6% -3.8%
University of Connecticut 35.8% 32.1% -3.7%
Wellesley College 44.5% 40.9% -3.6%
University of Iowa 39.7% 36.1% -3.6%
Trinity College 30.1% 26.6% -3.5%
Boston University 27.1% 23.6% -3.5%
Boston College 32.9% 29.5% -3.3%
College of William and Mary 42.2% 38.9% -3.3%
Rhodes College 26.7% 23.5% -3.2%
Colby College 36.9% 33.7% -3.2%
University of Wisconsin-Madison 44.9% 41.7% -3.2%
Mills College 30.7% 27.5% -3.2%
University of California-Davis 27.0% 24.0% -3.0%
University of California-Riverside 18.3% 15.3% -2.9%
American University 20.2% 17.2% -2.9%
Carnegie Mellon University 25.3% 22.5% -2.8%
Lawrence University 31.2% 28.5% -2.7%
University of Maryland-College Park 40.5% 37.8% -2.7%
Centre College 28.7% 26.1% -2.6%
Whitman College 31.2% 28.6% -2.6%
University of Notre Dame 61.0% 58.4% -2.6%
Iowa State University 48.5% 45.9% -2.6%
Wesleyan University 40.3% 37.7% -2.6%
University of California-San Diego 24.1% 21.6% -2.5%
University of Virginia-Main Campus 53.8% 51.3% -2.5%
Furman University 35.0% 32.5% -2.5%</p>
<p>Would a decrease in yield be in part due to people applying to so many more schools now?</p>
<p>Decrease in yield? Does that factor in the INCREASE in applications? Raw stats can be manipulated for unintended results.</p>
<p>Fordham has seen a HUGE increase in applications in four years from around 14,000 to over 22,000 last year. They expect the 17th consecutive year of increased applications this year and increased quality of applicants. </p>
<p>Yield is also a measure of competition among elite and even second tier schools for the same brilliant kids.</p>
<p>I just caution people to be very careful when looking at statistics like this. On one level its objective data, but on another level its not entirely the whole story.</p>
<p>I suspect Fordham is not alone.</p>
<p>And finally, I know it was not intended as a put down for any school, even Brown, but I dont know of any school that has had a drop in the quality of education. Some have fallen and some have risen in those ubiquitous and over analyzed college rankings. But even that is not a fair measure of the value of an education at any one institution. This is not a contest to see who wins the most prestige. At least not for me.</p>
<p>In really looking at these statistics it strikes me that none of them necessarily address the original idea–schools losing prestige. There are so many factors at work regarding these numbers. People applying to so many schools, the schools then having to accept more students because they can’t be sure of yield, etc.</p>
<p>There are many outstanding colleges on that list of decreased yields whom I would strongly suggest have actually increased in prestige and some have risen considerably in the college rankings. That is my point.</p>
<p>I totally agree</p>
<p>could anyone really say that</p>
<p>Amherst
Bates
Colby
Oberlin
or Tufts
among many, many others on that list has LOST prestige over the last 5 years?</p>
<p>I think there’s actually more prestige to go around than there was in the past. A number of schools are now discussed in the same category as the Ivies that were not widely known a couple of decades ago–like WashU for example. But I don’t think this has harmed the prestige of the top schools–perhaps we have a rising tide that raises all boats.</p>
<p>Yes…and the demographics have a huge effect on perceptions of prestige. 30 years ago fewer went to college and of those, they often stayed home or very close to home. Now kids are going to college at unbelievable rates…more than 90% of most high school graduates apply and get admitted to a four year college…unprecedented numbers. And as they applications increase, the bottle neck gets narrower and forces MORE kids to look at places beyond the Harvard’s of the world. 30 years ago you could get into Harvard a lot easier, if you look at percentages. Today, there are more applications and more kids with stats that blow you away, so they are forced into looking at other schools, and that so to speak, raises all boats in a rising tide. </p>
<p>If anything, the sheer numbers and highlights have forced most colleges to improve their quality of education. If they dont perform, kids simply transfer and leave.</p>
<p>Its that simple.</p>
<p>With the rising cost of education both parents and students have higher expectations. And there are PLENTY of schools out there who will take kids in who are unhappy somewhere…already my D was contacted by TWO waitlist schools from last year…so you see?</p>
<p>Higher education is HIGHLY competitive.</p>
<p>Swansong,
I am very much in agreement with your general point (and Hunt as well) that a larger universe of applicants is spreading the student talent more broadly. But I think you overstate in some cases the degree of changes in acceptance rate for many of the historical powers. Most of these have been in the teens or lower since 1991. The big change is that many other colleges have seen dramatic declines in the acceptance rates (partly a function of the higher numbers of students and partly a reflection of their applying to a larger number of universities than before). Consider the following changes in acceptance rates (data from USNWR):</p>
<p>2007 Acceptance Rate, 1991 Acceptance Rate, College</p>
<p>10% , 17% , Princeton
9% , 18% , Harvard
9% , 19% , Yale
11% , 18% , Stanford
18% , 41% , U Penn
17% , 31% , Caltech
13% , 30% , MIT
23% , 25% , Duke
12% , 29% , Columbia
38% , 45% , U Chicago
16% , 25% , Dartmouth
21% , 54% , Wash U
25% , 30% , Cornell
14% , 24% , Brown
30% , 47% , Northwestern
27% , 48% , Johns Hopkins
24% , 24% , Rice
32% , 64% (1993) , Emory
34% , 59% (1992) , Vanderbilt
27% , 49% (1994) , Notre Dame
24% , 37% , UC Berkeley
34% , 64% , Carnegie Mellon
37% , 37% , U Virginia
22% , 24% , Georgetown
26% , 43% , UCLA
47% , 60% , U Michigan</p>
<p>Also, in doing some work earlier this year, I discovered that the numbers of high school students who go on to 4-year and 2-year colleges is only 65-70% of high school graduates, not 90% as you indicate above. This is still a large increase over 10-15 years ago when it was well less than 50% (not to mention the large increase in total population of graduating high school class of about 50%).</p>
<p>Hawkette – When you were looking into the percentage of high school students who go on to a 2 or 4-year college did you get a breakdown of the respective percentage of those going to a 2-year school vs. a 4-year school? I had read someplace the other day that approximately 40% of high school seniors go on to community/junior colleges, which would suggest that the percentage going to a 4-year school is around 25%.</p>
<p>hudsonvalley51,
I don’t remember the exact numbers, but I think it was a little higher to the 4-year colleges than you indicate. I have often thought about the impact of this demographic surge as the number of high school graduates has grown from about 1.4mm in 1993 to about 2.3mm in 2007. With freshman places at the most selective colleges relatively constant over that period of time, it is easy to see how the acceptance rates have been driven down at a broad swath of colleges. For example, the number of freshman places at the USNWR Top 20 national universities and the Top 20 LACs is only about 30,000. Add in the next 10 USNWR national universities (which includes 5 publics) and you add another 30,000 places and most of these schools have seen enormous increases in total applications to reflect the spillover and the expanded base of applicants.</p>
<p>Its 90% going to college in my community, I can assure you…and higher at private high schools.</p>
<p>My point was exactly that…that the LOWER acceptance rates are driven by the INCREASED number of applications.</p>
<p>I think at one time Harvard had a 30% acceptance rate in the 70’s, if I am not mistaken and that is my point. But yes, in the last 10 years or 15 years we have seen dramatic decreases in acceptance rates. The schools are not shrinking, but the number of applicants is increasing. There are a myriad of socio-economic reasons for that fact, one of which is the severe decline in manufacturing jobs and the severe increase in service sector and high tech jobs. Kids know that the competition for jobs is extreme and to get a job and keep a job they MUST go to college. 40 years ago going to college was not a prerequisite to survival or success. Today it pretty much is the case, unless you want to work for a low hourly wage or sell used cars.</p>