Colleges Tell All - NACAC Survey

Parents Forum
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<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>I'm definitely not too knowledgeable about how visits compare to EC's, but for four colleges on the cc list of top universities (the only four I have heard info on), the adcoms have been public as stating that they definitely count 'visits' as a plus factor. Indeed, one adcom at at top LAC (~45 miles from downtown LA), even said that they look askance at any kid who lives within a day's drive but does not visit the campus; essentially, he is saying it is a requirement to be considered for admission, at least if you live anywhere from the Mexican border to the Bay Area. They do make exceptions for obvious low income situations, and anyone who would require expensive air travel, however.</p>

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<p>You were absolutely correct. There were three sources of data for the report, but it seems that only the adcoms answered the college admission part.</p>

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<p>I just have one question about demonstrated interest. Do you believe an applicant's financial background is considered in whether or not a visit was made?</p>

<p>This, especially, is about Dartmouth, since it is the only school (besides Harvard, which is known to not regard interest) to which I'm applying that I have not visited. My parents didn't think it would be possible to skip the 3 days it would take to visit, and we decided to wait until maybe I got in, when I can splurge the money and go to the admitted students' weekend. (I'm aware that it is considered to be poor form to not visit a school before deciding how you feel about it, but that's not really the point here.)</p>

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<p>My S visited HYP & C. He was not asked to record his visit in any of these places and had to write especially for application materials. Maybe he was a fluke. We received a very very small amount of mail from colleges, perhaps because he did not check the appropriate box when he took the PSAT. But it made putting the stuff out for recycling easier.</p>

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<p>Dartmouth's representative said in the regional information meeting here that Dartmouth (and the schools it travels with) doesn't track interest.</p>

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<p>The "demonstrated interest" comment made me break out in a cold sweat. I have two S's, neither of whom would be caught dead demonstrating interest, no matter how desperately they want to attend a university. They will dream about it, talk to themselves in their closets about it, pray for it, even maybe let me know about it, but never, ever, would they "demonstrate interest". It would go under the category of "sucking up" and that was bred out of them by their peers in 4th grade.</p>

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<p>I think it might help if parents looked at "demonstrated interest" with a broader view. It does not, (from this former adcoms perspective) have to mean "sucking up" to a school.</p>

<p>A student who has taken the time to visit a web site (these weren't wide spread in my day, but I assume that visits to them, esp. if you sign up for a campus tour or visit or request info are tracked), come to the Open House; attend the College Fair in your hometown and fill out a card; go to the guidance office when the college rep visits, etc. will all be demonstrating interest in that college.</p>

<p>Any adcom will like to see those types of demonstrated interest because hopefully through these events, the student is learning more & more about the college & its appl. process and determining whether it will be a good option for them. Ultimately, you hope that a student is having his/her questions about the college & what it offers answered through these contacts. If they are well-informed about the school, then you typically can assume that if admitted and deciding to attend, the student should have a pretty good conception of what their chosen school is all about.</p>

<p>As Carolyn noted, demonstrated interest is not the end-all, be-all determining factor for many of the colleges who responded. H.S. curriculum and grades, and standardized tests are still going to be the main determinent of who gets into most of the OTHER colleges in this vast United States outside of the highly selective, elite HYSP, et al.</p>

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<p>Irish...this is where my kids are at a disadvantage. The only college reps that visit our school or our "college fair" are from Texas schools. My son was very fortunate that the Pomona rep gave him an interview. He drove up to San Antonio to meet with the rep who was between private schools in the area. We cannot afford to fly out to all of his schools, so he will visit the schools where he has been accepted instead. I find that schools that insist on a campus visit favor families that live in close proximity or have the funds to travel.</p>

<p>Dizzy: I can relate to your comments. My son is not the kid bouncing up and down in his seat, waving his hands, going "ooh ooh pick me! pick me!"</p>

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<p>Dartmouth's representative said in the regional information meeting here that Dartmouth (and the schools it travels with) doesn't track interest.</p>

<p>I don't think that is entirely true because on Page 1 of their Pre-application they ask you what contact have you had with the school and what have you learned the most from. </p>

<p>I agree with what Irishbird said that you don't necessary have to trek across the country to show a school that you are interested.Regional adcoms spend a great deal of time on the road visiting colleges so wouldn't it worth the time to attend the College Fair in your hometown and fill out a card; go to the guidance office when the college rep visits, etc. will all be demonstrating interest in that college.</p>

<p>However, if you live a reasonable commuting distance from the school and don't feel that it worth your time to to on a tour, spend a night, sit in on a class, it really does show a lack of interest. I know at Columbia if you are close enough to visit and don't it is literally a kiss of death and the Adcom was very straight forward about it when he visited our school.</p>

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<p>"so wouldn't it worth the time to attend the College Fair in your hometown and fill out a card; go to the guidance office when the college rep visits, etc. will all be demonstrating interest in that college"</p>

<p>Echoing texastaximom, what is this "college fair" or "college rep visit?" Not part of our vocabulary at our HS.</p>

<p>Interesting about Columbia. Now, how exactly would one know that if they don't visit your school (despite being less than 20 miles away)? We visited twice, and they really didn't seem to care, told son not to bother filling out a card the second time.</p>

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<p>Some high schools hold college fair where adcoms or regional representatives come to your high schoool. They set up tables, hand out information, talk about the admissions process, financial aid etc.</p>

<p>On a College rep visit the Adcom for a particular college comes to visit your high school usually stays for about 1-2 hours .</p>

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<p>College fairs: can be nationally sponsored, i.e. from the National Association of College Admissions Counseling. These are usually held at a big convention center in major cities; can attract thousands of students/parents with upwards of 300 colleges having booths. e.g Pittsburgh Nat'l being held Feb. 2-3, 2005., Boston Nat'l Fair on April 12-13, Greater Los Angeles CF held Apr. 20,</p>

<p>College fairs(day time program) or nights can also be held by a local high school. Most of these are offered in the fall, hence the crazy travel schedule for many admissions offices each fall...try being in at all college night programs offered in October in the state of New Jersey!! These can attract up to 100 or so colleges; attendance will vary based on how the high schools promote it and organize it. If it is not well-attended by parents/students, colleges will drop it from there schedules.</p>

<p>High school visits: also primarily in the fall. Representatives from colleges will plan an individual high school visit where they will stop in the guidance office or career center to speak with any students who are allowed to sign up (usually juniors or seniors). Can be brief visit, if no students sign up, you update the counselor with new info/ applications from your college. Generally try to visit at least 3-4 schools a day, forming your schedule around college nights/fairs for which you have signed up. </p>

<p>Very selective colleges will not need to do as much travel or high school visits as described above. They will likely offer regional information sessions held at local hotels for students/parents to receive an overview of their school. They are also most likely to offer alumni interviews, for those who can't travel to school & to cut down on on-campus int. They could not handle all the requests for on-campus interviews that they receive. Conversely, many state universities will treat high school visiting & interviews in much the same way, because they generate so much interest anyway, they could not possibly handle all requests.</p>

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<p>I'm probably just too Ivy-oriented. All I know is that when it comes to Ivies & Ivy-level, anyway, surely more than half the applicant pool has a "demonstrated interest" ranging from mild to obsessive; ranking or comparing "DI" for applicants would be an absurdity. The rep visits for these are also few & far between (usually one per year in one broad metro region for each of them if you're across the country). And if Ivies are not in your region but you aspire to admission, "college fairs" will not be of much help to you, either. These are generally regional events for those who plan to attend college locally.</p>

<p>I would agree that if you live in a State with beautiful weather & are seeking a college within that State -- such as northern or southern CA, only the most impoverished of applicants should be excused from making a personal visit.</p>

<p>I guess I also have a problem with DI being a significant factor for admission in general. It's one thing to take the trouble & thought to articulate why you are especially suited to a school, & vice-versa -- possibly reminding them of that in more than one fashion. But unless I'm a school that is desperate for students, I don't know that someone who really, really, really wants to go to my school should be considered over someone who just wants to go, but is slightly better qualified & is reserved & measured about his or her interest. This is part of the phony one-sided Courting thing that I have a problem with. Students have something to give <em>you</em>, too, colleges. Did that ever occur to you? But you want to punish them because they do not respond obsequiously to every unsolicited mass college-mailing? </p>

<p>Colleges have large paid staffs whose job it is to handle PR & other communications. For some of these personnel, this is all they do. High school students have a different job, while unpaid: it's called their current academic responsibilities, not to mention ec's, etc. They are actually busy doing that. Really accomplished students are maxed out, & have little spare time to get into the mutual courting game (which it is, a game), other than the minimum. I would question the academic substance of a student who had significant time to -- you said it, dizzy_mom -- suck up.</p>

<p>Obviously arrogance is also not going to win anyone over. But someone who shows enough interest to ask for an app, possibly to attend one local rep talk if offered -- & most importantly, fills out that app thoughtfully, fully, on-time, in a way that shows care about the app process & allows the adcom to judge the fit for the college -- that's all the DI a college should really care about, i.m.o. The content of that application & the manner of presentation & submission speaks volumes to me about DI, much more so than pleas, phone calls, love letters, & showing up/signing in.</p>

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<p>But see, this demonstrated int. has gone off track, i think. Only 7% of the respondents said it had considerable imp. More imp. tip factors were rank, essay & recommendations, all of which, as you pointed out, epiphany would be part of the content of the application.</p>

<p>I think what Carolyn was most surprised about was that DI was ranked equally (at 7%) with EC's which is something most posters think REALLY makes a difference in admissions. Maybe it does to some colleges, but it didn't show up that way in the stats from these adcom responses.</p>

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<p>Dizzy and Texastaxi - I hear you about kids being cold on "demonstrated interest" it was sort of a goad at our house to take some interest and ownership of the process - Texasmom's description was quite apt.</p>

<p>Texasmom - my impression, even at schools where I got the feeling that demonstrated interest was a factor, "demonstrated interest" does not automatically equal a visit before applying/being accepted - there wre many other ways to demonstrate interest, beginning with contacting the adcom office. I agree, those of us who are far away are at a disadvantage, public school and low income add on even more obstacles.</p>

<p>Willywonka - re Dartmouth. If you are contacted for a local alumni interview (not everyone has someone close by to do one, so don't panic), do it. Otherwise I wouldn't worry - I got the distinct feeling that they provided tours, interviews and contacts more because it was expected, rather than to provide them with any vital information. I got the same view at Yale, Duke and to a lesser extent Vandy. This was in contrast to Swarthmore, Haverford and Davidson, where, while interviews were not always required or evaluative, but you got a feeling that they wanted you to know what the school was about, whether or not it would fit you, and for their benefit whether or not you were serious about coming.</p>

<p>My perception after DD visiting, etc, several schools was that demonstrated interest is both school specific, and "person" specific, situation specific, if you will. If you really want to go to a school, if it is your top choice or close enough to the top that you know it will be a contender if you are admitted, or if you truly can't decide, but can't visit - then demonstrate interest in some fashion - an E-mail or attendance at a rep visit, being the easiest. No school (not even haverford and Richmond which of all the ones we looked at, seemed the most concerned about demonstrated interest) said an interview/visit was absolutely necessary, they all wanted to attract students from far away and students of low income.
An example of what I mean by situational - we visited Vandy, DD's high school is a natural source of students for Vanderbilt, she would be a strong candidate in the context of their traditional applicant pool. I got the feeling that they could predict within a few percentage points, based on experience, what her likelihood of enrolling would be if admitted - they would either want her, or not depending on how many students from our area with similar stats, etc, they had to choose from. Her need to demonstrate interest - sign a card at a College Fair. For a similar school out of region, like Tufts or NW, she would need to do a little more - perhaps write an essay expressing her particular interest with specific references as to why, and E-mail to the area rep, explaining why she couldn't visit, asking a pertinent question,etc - one of those things not all. For Yale, just apply, early if possible.</p>

<p>Demonstrated interest does have one benefit to the student - the one that Irishbird eluded to earlier - smaller schools with distinct atmospheres, might prefer a dedicated student anxious to attend to a slightly better statistically qualified student who is applying because they were denied by thier first choice.</p>

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<p>Willywonka, and others - Don't focus just on the visit. There are other ways colleges see demonstrated interest. Here's what the study report said:</p>

<p>"Demonstrated Interest"</p>

<p>...Although here is no commonly agreed-upon definition for the term, "demonstrated interest" is best described as the admission office's evaluation of how committed the student is to attending the insitutition if accepted. There is no standardized way to compute or tabulate a student's interest in attending the institution, but some examples of ways in which colleges and universities ascertain a student's interest are campus visits, content of open-ended essays, contact by the student with the admission office, letters of recommendation, and early application through either early action or early decision.</p>

<p>[In the Admissions Trends Survey] a student's demonstrated interest in attending an institution clearly plays a role in the admission decision. In the abstract, 33 percent of instititutions consider a student's demonstrated interest in attending while evaluating their application for admission. In ONE specific instance (emphasis added by Carolyn), 44 percent of colleges count a visit to campus as a "plus" factor in the admission decision. As it ranks among other factors, demonstrated interest is among the "tip factors" in the admissions decision, as 30 percent of instititions assigned it either "considerable" or "moderate" importance in 2003.</p>

<p>Here's the link directly to this section - discussion of demonstrated interest starts on page 49. <a href="http://www.nacac.com/downloads/2004research_chapter4.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nacac.com/downloads/2004research_chapter4.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>By the way, as I've said, Demonstrated Interest and EC's received the same number of responses saying that they were of "considerable" importance in the admissions decision. However, EC's DID receive slightly higher response as being "moderately important" in the decision. But, demonstrated interest, as discussed above, can be a tipping factor. It is NOT THE MOST important factor, however. But it is rising in prominence according to the study.</p>

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<p>Just remember, colleges care about yield. If you had a choice between two equally qualified candidates and one had shown a lot of interest that indicated he/she WOULD attend if accepted and the other hadnt, which would you choose if you were an adcom?</p>

<p>Again, this probably doesn't hold true for the most selective schools - Any school that gets 20,000 plus applications for 1200 freshman slots KNOWS that most of their applicants already HAVE a demonstrated interest in attending.</p>

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<p>On the yield thing, I thought there were only about half a dozen colleges with yield of 60% or more, and maybe that many again between 50-60.</p>

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<p>I think that the ease of multiple applications - online, and with the common app - is fueling this. Showing my age, I know - but do you remember typing those things when we were young? It would be interesting to know the average number of applications per student over time.</p>