Colleges Tell All - NACAC Survey

Parents Forum
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<p>Carolyn,</p>

<p>I agree with you that it is all about yeild andmost schools really don't want to waste an admit on someone who is not going ot attend. I think that over the next few years as the number of applicants peak, DI in terms of how much do you know about the school and what the students feel that can offer to the environment may come into play.</p>

<p>But even filtering through those 20,000 applicants you will find that there is a good percentage there with a 'sheep mentality" following the crowd and really knowing nothing about the school which they are applying to, or are really not interested in knowing believing that they will just ride in on their SAT scores, grades, ec's etc.</p>

<p>Case in point, Look at how many questions on the CC are posted by prospective students for the information that could be easily found on the school's website?</p>

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<p>You're absolutely right Sybbie. A similar example are the number of kids who say they are going to apply to "all the ivies" without even considering the differences between them. I suppose it is possible that even Ivy schools can sense this in their admissions.</p>

<p>One thing I found interesting was the comment in the report that schools can sense demonstrated interest from recommendations. This ties in with what my daughter's English teacher told her class earlier this year about asking teachers for recommendations. She said that students should try to give a brochure or some information about the school for the person writing the recommendation, or give the person a list of reasons why the person and the school are "good fits" for each other that they can use in the recommendation. I think that is an excellent idea.</p>

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<p>Cangel, you do have a point about DI maybe being pivotal for smaller schools, esp. where campus atmosphere is a big focus & a student body with a 100% commitment is important to the dynamics, socially & intellectually. But I guess I still feel that a student who has done the research about that atmosphere & mentions that in the app as a motivation to attend (& why he or she belongs in that student body), should be considered equal to the student who has the funds to travel there & see it firsthand. There are many sources of info about a college, & some visits & guides are better than others. One acquaintance of mine mentioned recently that S or D was turned off, & thrown off, by a local tour of Penn, where literally the student guide talked only about one student-life topic; I think it was a single sport,I don't remember, but the implication was that this was all the college was about. How could you expect to show DI if that activity wasn't your Thing?</p>

<p>We've made it a point to collect many info sources -- personal & published, esp. when a visit hasn't been possible, so that we can get a feel for what kind of student the college is looking for, & what the college's priorities are -- as opposed to a student guide's priorities. I've also counseled my D to mention on any app if she has desired to visit a college but has been unable to. I mean, one might have to start this visiting process in 8th grade, in order to fit in all possible personal visits to colleges on an ultimate app list. There's just not that much time, people, even if one does have funds.</p>

<p>I also have a concern with the "prejudice of style," shall we say. My D is an example, & she can't be unique in this: Very conservative in her manner, she is reserved & no cheerleader. Even when excited on the inside, she never bubbles over on the outside. Her DI in a college may look more insipid than someone else's, but it is just less flashy. And lots of guys are not as outwardly expressive as many girls are. And these are teenagers, as well; there's a lot of self-consciousness going on. Dizzy_mom's experiences reinforce some of these realities.</p>

<p>They're supposed to leap over their development into age 23, and abandon their current h.s. responsibilities in order to play PR games with employed adults. </p>

<p>Stupid.</p>

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<p>Epiphany, you are describing DI, it does not have to be a visit, that's what I'm trying to say - now if you live in suburban Philadelphia and apply to Swat RD having never visited, using a canned "I want to go to small college" essay for "Why Swarthmore?" - I don't think it will help you, but a low income kid from inner city Philadelphia migh even have a shot.</p>

<p>DD is somewhat like you describe, has trouble blowing her own horn, in retrospect, I think she would have preferred applying RD sight unseen and visiting afterwards, but she "want to enjoy my senior year!"</p>

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<p>sybbie, I absolutely agree with you on the sheep mentality factor that, given what we've seen on CC, must also exist outside of it, too. However, I continue to feel that the app will weed out the sheep from the non-sheep. The other tool is the interview. A college that considers DI crucial should be putting their money where their mouth is, & provide local interviews, in fact insist on them. Plenty of sheep have been weeded out via the interview -- of those that haven't already been weeded out via the submitted app. If you're clueless about yourself or the school, it's going to show.</p>

<p>I also love the idea (I think courtesy of carolyn) that provides an opportunity for DI via the teacher rec, & the suggestion of providing written materials to the recommenders. In my D's case, they knew the schools well enough without these, but it never hurts if a student isn't sure. With the teacher knowing personal aspects of the student, & the GC hopefully knowing the campus culture & profile, together they should be addressing this question on behalf of the student. That just merely reinforces my belief that this is mainly an adult task, because adults on college staffs are deciding broadly what the needs of the institution are. An adolescent does not have that same perspective; they know about themselves, & their world-views tend to be appropriately more subjective.</p>

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<p>Humm, I am not sure if we are reading the same report! </p>

<p>Does this report say that DI is very important? No, only 7% of respondents give it a rank of "considerable importance". That also means that 93% of the respondent do not consider DI very important. </p>

<p>The real surprise in the report is that the respondent put DI and EC on the same footing. From this result could we infer that, from now on, we should consider EC -which we KNOW are very important in the application discussed on CC- to only be as important as the vague term of DI? Again, I would like to point out that the respondent pool seem to be overloaded by representatives of schools where very little matter except for a single statistic. For instance UT-Austin uses a 15 items holistic approach to determine admissions, yet anyone in the top 10% gets automatic admission. Do any of the remaining 14 (of 15) items really matter or do they provide statistical aberrations? The other Texas flagship shool makes it even easier: top 10% or 1300 SAT. Does anything matter for students who have one of the two statistics? The answer is rather easy! Speaking about statistics, we could ask ourselves at which point the "other elements" lose importance. I think that you do NOT have to go way down on the USNEWS list. The schools I mention in my example are solidly in the top 100. From the same group, I am sure that we could find many schools that have a single numerical requirement for admission. How many of those schools did also participate in the survey? Probably quite a few! </p>

<p>Trying to extrapolate too much from this report is a recipe for disaster. Should parents and students, from now on, dedicate as much time to courting the colleges via emails, letters, and visit than to the pursuit of meaningful EC's? That does seem to make any sense at all? </p>

<p>Also, I sense a great disconnect among the definitions of DI. In my book, DI does not necessarily equate with knowledge of the school. This is how I view the difference: one of the essays that is reputed to be hard is the old, "Why would you attend Lucky U". One student could write at length how he was impressed by the beauty of the campus, the size of the library, how nice students and faculty were, and stress that he visited three times. Another student could write that he is particularly impressed with Prof. Nevergivebees, the famous biology teacher. He would further state that he read his books and cannot wait to start working in the lab under the famous teacher. Student B has never put a foot on campus. Now, who did show more demonstrated interest? Student A. Who will impress the adcoms in the same category: Student B, and by a mile! </p>

<p>As I see it, the DI is yet another cynical twist of gamesmanship. The same gamemanship that continues to destroy the spirit and fairness of the admissions' process. I do not doubt that some schools cannot resist the songs of the sirens and love to see the interest of students, and this without caring too much if it is genuine or fabricated. </p>

<p>Going back to the EC, we also know that they have been manipulated with vengeance -Blair Hornstine, anyone? Personally, I would hate to see thousands of family feeling compelled to start playing the courting game and inundate the admissions offices with countless tokens of DI. </p>

<p>Again, maybe, we are talking about different things!</p>

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<p>Sorry folks, my sarcasm went awry. I do know what college fairs and visits from reps are; my point was that they don't exist at most high schools, at least in regards to selective schools, so to expect people to use them to demonstrate interest just doesn't fly for most of us.</p>

<p>I also agree that this 7%thing is being blown way out of proportion--I totally agree with Xiggi's assessment above.</p>

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<p>Xiggi, I do think that the reason some of us are obsessing about this is that DI was put on the same level as EC, as you mentioned. Given the rigors of true & proven ec accomplishments, such an equation seems absurd, at least to me -- even if this equation is limited to the "single statistic" kind of college you mention. DI should only be a tip factor for equally qualified students with no other more important tip factors, in my view. To other posters, I understand the Yield concern on the part of colleges, but I also think yield automatically increases as selectivity increases. Admit the capable students, not the ones merely infatuated, & you've solved half your problem.</p>

<p>I actually do think that knowledge is an aspect of DI, just as it is absolutely the case in job searches. Talking about the beautiful college campus does not count for much, in my book. But my feeling is that if you've read enough to know how you would fit into a particular major or school at the U, because of your background & your possible academic goals, that shows DI.</p>

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<p>xiggi: re: inundating colleges with DI - i certainly feel that based on the respondents in that survey, lots of colleges are NOT asking to be inundated w/ tokens of DI, or page after page of amazing EC's; the academic characteristics of the students expressed through the application & all it contains, along with rec. & essay are what will determine their admission.</p>

<p>Extremely selective or Ivy admissions - where almost every single applicant is academically well-qualified - is a whole different ball of wax. We don't know how many of them responded to this survey, but they certainly might put EC's & students' expressed interest in the college as additional imp. factors for decision-making. It just seems since many of the posters here seem to focus only on those type of schools, much more emphasis is being placed on having outstanding EC's & demonstrated interest than is really deserved.</p>

<p>Most other colleges not in the rarified air of Ivy admissions will be very glad to see good EC's & some form of demonstrated int. on the part of the applicant, but those things won't make or break their chances for admission.</p>

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<p>One last comment about demonstrated interest: Bear in mind that 33% of respondents said that demonstrated interest is a factor in admissions decisions. Of those, 7% said it was of "considerable importance." Small schools - those under 3000 students were most likely to say that a VISIT is a "plus" in the admissions decision - nearly 60% of those smaller than 3000 students said that. They also said demonstrated interest was a factor in the admission decision than the overall group (40% vs. 33%). 45% of private schools listed demonstrated interest as important compared with 12% of publics. And 59% of PRIVATE schools said a visit was a "plus" in the admissions decision. Does this mean you won't get in if you don't visit - no, but a visit does increase your attractiveness to adcoms.</p>

<p>I'd like to talk a bit about another thing I found somewhat surprising in the survey results - it was very interesting that the ESSAY was listed as so important - more so than the counselor or teacher recommendation OR extracurriculars. 23% of schools said it was of considerable importance, right behind grades and test scores.
32% of private schools said it is important (only 9% of public) and at schools that are highly selective (accept less than 50% of students) 37% said it was of considerable importance. Anyone have any thoughts on this?</p>

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<p>Garland: I understood your sarcasm. It is a different world down in South Texas, far from either coast and where most people auto admit. Nobody, from the out-of-state schools to our own guidance counselors, spends much time on anything other than our state unis as that is where the bulk of the kids attend. We have never had an admissions representative from out of state visit our school. Once, my oldest rode a bus up to San Antonio for a college fair. It was a great disappointment as many just had tables where you could pick up the information, but there was not a representative present. </p>

<p>Now at the private schools in Austin, San Antonio, and Houston plenty of selective admissions personnel visit. It just doesn't happen in our neck of the woods. My oldest drove to Houston for an interview, and as I stated earlier my second drove to San Antonio. </p>

<p>At least some of the schools have the "why us" or "where do you see yourself in four years" essays to provide an opportunity to show that you have looked past the first page in the glossy brochure.</p>

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<p>While colleges may still care about yield for other reasons, it is no longer a factor in the USNWR rankings, which dropped it from their calculations in 2003.</p>

<p>From The New York Times, July 10, 2003:</p>

<p>"College Rating by U.S. News Will Now Skip a Key Factor:</p>

<p>"Perhaps the most influential survey of American higher education is changing the way it ranks the nation's top colleges and universities, dropping from its ratings a statistic that many institutions had sought to manipulate in hopes of raising their ranking in the survey. </p>

<p>"As it prepares to release its annual rankings, U.S. News & World Report, which conducts the survey, has dropped from its formula a statistic known as the yield rate. That figure is the percentage of applicants accepted by a university who later enroll at that institution. </p>

<p>"U.S. News had placed little weight on the yield rate; the figure represented less than 2 percent of a college's overall score, the magazine said. But the institutions, eager to do anything that might raise their scores, had considered the rate, and its potential impact on rankings, important enough to admit more students under 'binding early decision' programs than they have in the past."</p>

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<p>Key discussion items for me here:</p>

<p>Demonstrated Interest - it is an admission factor at a third of the schools polled, and there are many things that communicate interest short of driving cross country and begging for acceptance. CCers have identified the schools where this is most important - selective colleges, particularly privates, below the HYPS/AWS level.</p>

<p>ECs - The EC LISTING is not very important in admissions, unless significant awards are present. But ECs are, as they are referenced and amplified in essays and recommendations.</p>

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<p>I'd say that EC's mean little if they amount to a ho-hum list of things like v.p.of the French club, but they mean a lot if you're an Intel finalist or a superstar athlete. I always zone out a little when confronted by a survey that asks you to rate the importance of things on a scale of 1-5.</p>

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<p>reidm,
good points -- & it would only make sense below that higher selectivity scale, because of the overwhelming DI for the very top level, making it mathematically meaningless, i.m.o., to attempt to rate or rank.</p>

<p>As to ECs, I agree with you there, too. I zone out when I see mere lists on CC in the Chances Forum. On my D's more significant ec's, she included at minimum a paragraph about each, summarizing high points. Two of these e.c.'s were further fleshed out in her essays. One of them was probably mentioned in at least one of her teacher rec's, since it's a co-curricular as well as an extracurricular, & her position is prominent. Her interviewer focused almost exclusively on her e.c.'s; he was interested & wanted full details. That's why at least in my D's case, I believe that ec's played some role in her early acceptance -- combined with the high level of ec accomplishment as stated on CC for similar early acceptees at the school.</p>

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<p>If a teacher is also an EC coach, you can get double duty for the rec. My son's English teacher is also his drama coach, and his CS teacher is the advisor for the robotics club (son also TA'd for her, so I guess that's three in one).</p>

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<p>I have admittedly, not read the survey link yet, but it blows me away to think expressing interest could outrank a "hook." HAven't we all been told for years that kids going IVy or other top schools have to have a hook?</p>

<p>Isn't the current view that universities want a student who has shown a passion in their area, no matter how uncommon?</p>

<p>Does this mean my hookless child could outdo my junior national team athlete, simply by calling the schools and expressing interest?</p>

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<p>In a word, no. Demonstrated interest isn't going to outweigh a wonderful national hook. But it could be a "tipping factor" if all other attributes are equal between two candidates being considered.</p>