Colleges That Change Lives - let's broaden the list.

Parents Forum
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Some western schools that may fit the bill and don’t get mentioned a lot:
College of Idaho in Caldwell, Idaho
Carroll College in Helena. Montana
St. Martin’s University in Lacey, WA
Walla Walla University in College Place, WA which is right next to Walla Walla, WA.
Pacific University in Forest Grove, OR
Linfield College in McMinnville, OR
Willamette University in Salem, OR (maybe gets mentioned a bit)
Dominican University of California in San Raphael, CA (just north of San Francisco in Marin County)

Also, Western Washington University in Bellingham, WA would maybe be a public school that is worth mentioning in this thread. It’s becoming popular in my area (SOCAL)

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That is because more selective colleges are already choosing kids who will likely succeed in life. Most high stats kids are smart, driven, ambitious, more likely to be middle class and higher by SES, and they usually have a clear plan for the rest of their lives. So most selective colleges help kids on their way, but rarely “turn them around”.

To “change lives” in the sense of the list, a college needs to be the type that will help kids who are less ambitious, less driven, often lower SES (though rarely very low SES), get their act together, plan for the future, and find a place for themselves.

Kids who are accepted to WIlliams, Carleton, or Pomona would generally be fairly successful places even if they didn’t attend that college. This is less true of the kids who attend the colleges on the CTCL list.

Now, there are also a large number of public universities which also change lives, likely even more drastically. However, these universities also generally have higher attrition rates. So UIC has probably changed more lives that most colleges. However, 40% of the kids who attend do not graduate. I would guess that Community Colleges are the colleges which have the most profound impact on the lives of their students.

I would also like to point out that 9 of the colleges on the CTCL list are Posse partners, some of the colleges that we’ve “added” are also Posse partners - Hobart and Smith, Depauw, and Union.

Interestingly, Grinnell, which was on the list, but was removed when it became more selective, also ended up terminating its partnership with the Posse Foundation when it became even more selective.

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CTCL has become essentially a marketing tool(“CTCL is dedicated to the advancement and support of a student-centered college search process.”), with its own website, scholarships, etc etc, and there is no evidence that these schools change lives any more or less than schools not on the list. And it appears remote that CTCL, even with the dedication above, will be recommending any colleges not on the list.
But I’ll admit I’m not a list person as I view them utterly unhelpful in most cases. And CC is replete with lists-not just the obsession with the Ivy League, but with posters referring to “Public Ivy” schools and “Little Ivy” and “LAC Ivy” ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Adding another list doesn’t seem particularly helpful.

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@MWolf Really good points. Thanks. The point, I think, that @crankyoldman and @wis75 are making is that ALL second-tier LAC do this - educate less driven, less remarkable, lower stat kids and help them find their place and secure a future. Or are these ones, picked by Pope, particularly better at it than other Liberal Arts Colleges?

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@crankyoldman Yeah - well I kinda don’t mind lists. :wink: My son was accepted to 3 of the CTLC schools, among others, and I didn’t know anything about this group until after he was admitted and were planning to go to admitted student days. Knowing that there were other schools like them has proved helpful in our college planning strategy with my daughter who will be senior in high school next year.

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Presumably, this includes colleges that serve the following populations well:

  • Low income or first-generation-to-college students.
  • Turnaround cases (i.e. C/D students in high school who get their act together in (community) college -- community colleges would be included here).
  • Nontraditional students.
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As a parent of a recent CTCL grad, I don’t think this group of schools has any corner on the market of “changing lives.” They are, in general, lesser known schools in areas that may have a harder time attracting students (to rural Kentucky, rural Illinois, central Texas for example). I think many of them, if relocated to major east coast cities would have much lower acceptance rates.
We weren’t looking for schools that were easy admits, my D had top stats. We were looking for liberal arts colleges we could afford because of full tuition merit money, so D could get a great education and graduate without debt for any of us. Mission accomplished.
She got a great education, expectations were high, she did a lot of neat things while in college and built a nice resume that landed her a very desirable and well paying job in her major upon graduation. She has no debt. Her classmates are doing the same. Study abroad, neat internships, undergraduate research, success career-wise. I don’t know whether or which them came out of high school with my daughter’s stats or not, but her entire friend group is doing the same types amazing things she is.

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@Parentof2014grad First of all, congrats on raising such an amazing kid!

I think, perhaps the higher acceptance rates, the far-flung locations and the merit money might be related. I think that’s how some of these schools attract high stat students - merit.

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CTCL is NOW a group of colleges that travel and market together, but it wasn’t originally.

Based on the comments I’m reading here it seems like many haven’t actually read Loren Pope’s book.

He explains very clearly what he considered important and why he chose the schools he did. Right on the cover it says “40 colleges you should know about even if you are not a straight A student”. So he was talking about schools most people didn’t know about, and schools that take kids who don’t have top gpas. Back cover: “They outdo Ivies and research universities in producing winners. And they work their magic on B and C students as well as on A students”.

You can agree or disagree with his list, his criteria, etc, of course. But he wrote the book, he coined the term, so he got to define it. He’s not going to include Big State U or Harvard - if you read the book you know why.

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@OHMomof2 I read the latest edition of the book (2013), but it seems like lots Loren Pope’s original profiles on the schools is not there. I believe the last one he actually wrote was the 2006/2007 edition. Which edition did you have?

I think the main idea, as your point out, is that these schools have an ability to work with students who aren’t high stats, driven/type A and help shape them into intellectually curious, accomplished young adults who end up in grad school or fulfilling careers.

The reason I brought up this thread is to point out that his list wasn’t exhaustive, and explore/identify schools similar in spirit.

The nay-sayers on this thread are quick to point out, "Aren’t just talking about virtually all lesser known second-tier (less competitive) liberal arts colleges?

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@Theoden If there are only two - the 2006 and the 2013, I had the earlier because I read it when S12 was applying to colleges. So in 2011 or so.

Totally get it.

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It is true that Pope did look at outcomes, not just what the schools offer in terms of programs and individual attention. Are the schools people are suggesting also graduating students who are achieving beyond what the incoming student statistics would predict?

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You mentioned Hartwick College in Oneonta, NY. I went to their open house with my son when he was looking a couple of year ago. I was very impressed. One of the things that struck me, especially compared to other schools we toured, was that the students were very happy and passionate about their school. I also noticed there were many different “types” of kids. We spoke to several professors/student services at booths set up and they were all very helpful and enthusiastic. The president spoke and I still remember her saying, “college is going to make you become more flexible.”

The campus was very pretty and I could only imagine how gorgeous it is when the foliage is peak. The little town of Oneonta is very cute and SUNY Oneonta is nearby so I imagine that brings more students and more opportunities both socially and academically. Hartwick is also easily accessible by the highway.

My son did apply and they gave him a great merit scholarship but in the end they didn’t have his chosen field of study so he went to a large university. I have often thought of Hartwick when he is trying to meet with a TA (prof not available), just a number in very large lectures, or frustrated by the lack of care/resources at his university. Hartwick College would surely give a quality undergraduate education with the personalized touch.

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I think these lists serve an important purpose. Yes, all colleges may change some lives, but some do it for more of their students, and are better at it, than others, just as all have study abroad programs, but some are better than others. Some colleges are more focused on experiential learning, or undergrad only teaching, or whatever, and that can result in producing grads who outperform initial expectations.

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I had a similar thread to this last year. Ignore a few early suggestions, because some people mentioned schools like UCLA, haha. http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/2079079-which-underrated-colleges-are-on-the-way-up-p1.html

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@Empireapple Just went to the Big Apple College Fair. We got a chance to speak to the Hartwick representative and find out more about the college.

Also got a chance to speak to folks at Lycoming College, which I would add to this list. We also spoke to the folks at Susquehanna College.

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@Hapworth Since you’re the CC fanboy of LAC, I think your perspective would be welcome.

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@ultimom

You said,

“It is true that Pope did look at outcomes, not just what the schools offer in terms of programs and individual attention. Are the schools people are suggesting also graduating students who are achieving beyond what the incoming student statistics would predict?”

Good question. I’ve heard Hartwick used as an example in one of Gladwell’s books for excellent results for income after graduation and the stats on Susquehanna for job/grad school placement are pretty solid. These two, it seems, have solid outcomes, given the stats of the incoming kids.

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@Theoden Thanks for this post. I love this topic…

As a proud alum of Hobart and William Smith, I tried my hardest to soft sell this to my son, who didn’t end up going there. Incidentally, I did make him apply as my wife and I met there and we both had an amazing experience. Talk about CTCL!! I simply explained that he “owed it to us” to apply as he wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for HWS… I digress.

Schools like HWS have SO much to offer for kids who may not be ready “out of the gate” from high school for the rigors of some of the “elite” echelon of LACs. I personally had lots of inconsistencies coming out of high school in my transcript (some A’s, mostly B’s, and a few C’s as well - average SAT scores). Turns out I had been diagnosed with dyslexia as a SENIOR in high school. They didn’t seem to care…

They have amazing resources, a strong and supportive alum network, and are willing to take chances on kids who don’t fit the mold but have lots of passions and ideas to share (Thank GOD!), and give them room to grow in a slightly less intense environment.

HWS Highlights:
-Amazing faculty focused exclusively on undergraduate teaching, who mostly have PhD in their field, no TA’s teaching class
-Smaller classes, i think average class size is under 20
-Student/Faculty ratio is 9:1
-Most gorgeous campus in NE, on Seneca Lake (my opinion)
-Awesome environment for D3 athletes, they’re at/near the top of rankings in most of the sports they offer, check it out
-Less intense/competitive academic environment
-Lately, have been very generous in terms of merit for well-qualified applicants, i think average FA package $40k, so net COA is much more affordable than you think

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@sharkbites Thanks for the excellent description of the school and your experience. I had a work colleague who loved HWS, and one of the parents on CC had her son choose HWS over Vanderbilt and St. Lawrence. Though he was a top-stat kid that might have flourished anywhere, he loved the vibe there.

We met the HWS rep at the Big Apple College Fair last weekend and she have us excellent insights into the school.

What I do like about the CTCL and similar schools is that, funny enough, you can send your kids your kids there! You see lots of legacies. I went to a New England Liberal Arts college which is more selective today than many Ivies were “back in the day” when I was looking at colleges. Two of my children applied there and were rejected. In my Facebook Group of college friends, NONE of us could get our kids accepted into our alma mater. At one of the CTCL accepted student days we attended (my son didn’t go that particular one), several alum came to have cocktails with the parents and one said 3 of his 4 children went there and loved it! So…as much as I loved my college, there is a bittersweet sense that none of my kids will attend there.