<p>“One of five women on college campuses are sexually assaulted.” Count me as one person who doesn’t believe this statistic. There is no reliable way to know this other than conjecture. I wonder if the people who are responsible for determining these numbers and disseminating this information are also trying to politicize this for their own agenda.</p>
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This is the problem I have–when you look at the facts of specific incidents, things don’t look nearly so black and white. On college campuses, there is a lot of drinking, and a lot of sexual activity. As I’ve noted on other threads, if sex between two drunk people is to be defined as rape or sexual assault, then perhaps there is a lot of it on campus. It’s not surprising that colleges are hesitant to impose strict punishments on boys in he-said-she-said situations. The results would be little different if you call in the regular police–it’s extremely hard to convict somebody of rape if the sexual encounter looks consensual at all.</p>
<p>Forced sex including penetration between two drunken people off campus, one of whom doesn’t consent, is rape.</p>
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Could you please define what you mean, specifically, by “forced” and “doesn’t consent”? This is where I have some trouble understanding what you think about the scenario–one which I imagine is quite common–in which two drunken people go back to the room of one of the two and have sex. If they are both too drunk to adequately form consent, is this by definition rape?</p>
<p>If they are both too drunk to adequately form consent, is this by definition rape?</p>
<p>I am not an attorney, but that would meet my definition.</p>
<p>I do not condone any sexual harrassment. I do, however, understand that the colleges do have a problem as to how they treat any students accused of crimes. There is that innocent until proven guilty thing that is a cornerstone of our judicial system. How to treat someone accused of a serious crime between the time of the accusation to when the jury makes its judgment is a problem everywhere. </p>
<p>Rape cases are especially difficult in terms of proof. There usually are no witnesses. There is a lot of consensual sex happening, and sometimes if after the act, demeaning words are exchanged , there can be a change of heart. The time as to whether this change occurred after or before or during sex is what determines rape, and to prove it is often impossible. </p>
<p>A woman I know well, has a daughter who alleged that she was raped by an athlete of a well known college team. The family was outraged, hired an attorney and really made a big stink about the entire thing, as I would expect families that could do so would do. The problem was there really was no other proof than the word of the girl. One night the mom came across some blog/ something where she read to her horror, that her daughter did consent. After the act, the athlete acted like a boor, basically letting her know that she was just another release for her, and she went berserk. She and her friend decided to accuse the guy of rape. Yes, alcohol, drugs were involved, and judgment was impaired, and once the accusation was levied, backing off was not something the girl wanted to do. She was fortunate that the media and the school news did not pick up on the story. </p>
<p>The rapes, actual and not, happen much more often than reported. Usually the accusations are not levied for lack proof, shame, embarrassment, but it goes the other way too. </p>
<p>I don’t know how colleges should handle these things other than to recommend, or insist on a leave of absence until the situation is cleared up for mental health reasons. They do need to be notified when these things happen but most campus police are not able to handle these situations. It’s like the Catholic church trying to deal with molestation issues. Too much self interest and preservation there. </p>
<p>The police are often frustrated with these cases. What can you do in a situation with o witnesses, and two conflicting stories? If no physical evidence is there, what can the police do? I know several cases, not all rape, where circumstantially there appears to be a crime, and I am on the side of the wronged, but I do not see evidence that will stand up in court. Should the accused or suspects in these cases be booked? The police and the DA do not seem to think so as they have not been taken into custody, and the friends/families of the victims are outraged. They want the the accused to have to go through a trial, get their days in court, if nothing else. Yes, they would love a conviction and heavy sentence too, but if they want the punishment to start now with charges levied. At what point should charges be levied? Should they be if the DA’s office in their experience pretty much know that a conviction will not happen? How much burden of proof is needed for to push a case to that level causing a lot trouble for the accused who is, innocent until PROVEN guilty. These cases can take years before they are resolved and the lives of those involved are left in a horrible way until they are.</p>
<p>What if the girl initiated the action while being drunk, and then found out what she did, blaming the boy for the action? In this case, who is raping whom?</p>
<p>I guess one problem I have with this topic is using one term to describe a number of situations which, in my mind at least, are very different in terms of the level of culpability involved. For example, I see a big difference between two drunken people having sex, and one sober person having sex with a drunken person.
It seems to me that if two people are both drunk, that if one is too drunk to be able to give consent, then the other may well be too drunk to form the intent to commit a crime. I don’t understand why, exactly, the behavior of one is that of a criminal, and that of the other is that of a victim. I can’t help feeling that there is some trace of paternalism toward women in how we think about these situations.</p>
<p>I agree. If we look at the example given by cptofthehouse, it is very clear that some girls deliberately use the position to achieve other goals. At times, boys are getting the short end of the stick here.</p>
<p>I hope the male-rights crusaders in this thread realize the exceptional cases of women manipulating the law to gain leverage over men are few and far between, while ‘real’ rapes happen all the time. Fabricated accusations designed to soil someone’s reputation make up for a very small percentage of all rape cases. And reported rapes themselves represent only a fraction of all rapes, **especially **on college campuses.</p>
<p>By focusing on unlikely and exceptional scenarios, you are derailing the discussion.</p>
<p>And by suggesting that male suspects are treated too harshly, you are distorting reality. Rapists very often get away with a slap on the wrist in college–an enforced leave of absence, some counseling, probation. Their victims, on the other hand, are often ostracized by their peers, blamed for ruining their rapists’ academic careers by seeking justice, and ultimately driven out of higher education altogether.</p>
<p>Yes, innocent until proven guilty and all that. However, this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.</p>
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But what, exactly, do you mean by “rapes?” I just find that a lot of terms are used too loosely in this kind of discussion.</p>
<p>If you’re going to define sex between two inebriated people as “rape,” then it’s not really an issue of a fabricated accusation–rather, the issue is what the accusation is, exactly.</p>
<p>The reason rapists get away with a slap on the wrist is that it is extraodinarily difficult to prove rape in the absence of witnesses, and in the presence of facts that might imply consent. If a woman reports that she was raped by a male student in his room after a party, with no witnesses, and after both of them had consumed alcohol, she is going to have a tough time proving that a crime was committed. Convictions require proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and this kind of scenario is highly likely to include doubt.</p>
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Got to agree with here … if a drunk women is legally incapable of giving consent … isn’t also true that a drunk male is legally incapable in giving consent? I am in no way defending rapist … I just think the drunken couple scenario is 1) tough to define rape … and 2) really tough to prosecute.</p>
<p>I agree, Ghostt, but we have to remember that it is truly “Innocent until proven guilty”. The reality is that anyone accused of certain things is often treated guilty. That the chances are that s/he is , is not the point. Gotta stick with the law otherwise there is chaos. Unfortunately, you have to have evidence to put away someone who assaults you. There is a standard of admissable evidence. I say “unfortunately” because, yes criminals do get away with things when there is insufficient proof, no witnesses. </p>
<p>There is a lot of angry talk about “blaming the victim” but the fact of the matter is that what each of us can do is to try to avoid being a victim. It is just common sense to stay away from situations that have a greater chance of getting you in trouble whether it is truly a fault issue or not. Yes, you can dress the way you please, drink as much as you want (if legal) and fool around to the last minute and say no, putting yourself with a situation where you can get raped, and it cannot be proven. Your rapist has rights too and if it cannot be proven in a court of law, it may not even get to that point. And the same for the men who are fooling around with women in dicey situations. You may get accused and even if found innocent, or no charges booked, the stigma of such an accusation hurts. Gotta use judgment.</p>
<p>What the role of a college is when students get into legal trouble is really an issue that has not been definitively defined. Most schools, and I’ve seen this with private k-12 school, and it may be the case for the public pre college schools too, have a very wide definition of what they consider bad behavior and they give themselves the leeway to do what they danged well please, regardless of the law… I ran into this situation personally at one time and basically had to face down the school that was not, for all its bragging of being so progressive, going to tolerate any possibility that any of their students may have done something illegal even off school grounds. And yes, they had that covered in their rules. They can kick you out for no reason, much less whether a reason is true or not. Colleges cover themselves the same way.</p>
<p>I didn’t read through the HuffPo link yet, but it may include an incident at University of the Pacific, CA which was “featured” recently on 60 Minutes. It referred to an alleged event from about 3 yrs ago.
In that story, the girl, an athlete, said she was raped by three male athletes. I don’t think they spoke on 60 Minutes, but they were certainly included on it. At the moment I thought…here is a story about campus rapes and victimization of women, a worthy topic, certainly, but WHAT IF these particular guys WERE innocent?! The heavy implication was they were not, but that was based more on the feeling the story conveyed rather than irrefutable facts.
The girl stated she did heavy drinking and entered the males’ residences and went upstairs to the bedroom. She was clearly out of it.
Problem was, she waited a little bit, then declined to go to the police, as advised by the school, THEN was dissatisfied with the results of the school judicial process (which was the only alternative left). The SCHOOL did not insist on using the school judicial process, so to say those are weak may be accurate, but what else was left to do? Alleged rape IS serious and the police must be informed immediately so evidence can be collected and charges filed, etc.
As I recall, one male athlete was in fact expelled (he found a space on another college basketball team promptly); one male athlete was temporarily suspended and returned; and I forget what happened to the third one. The girl and her family were outraged, she felt uncomfortable on the campus, and decided to sue the university - lawsuit failed or was thrown out by judge; not sure if appealing.
I truly feel it is impossible to know the FACTS of what actually happened, I believe there was no evidence (don’t recall witnesses), and waiting to throw charges at people does not help resolve the situation. I did not see anything indicating the university provided an unsafe environment for women, or was responsible for what may or may not have happened. All the same, the university’s name was thrown around negatively on 60 Minutes.</p>
<p>lateparty, those athletes may have gotten more serious punishment from the university than they would have been likely to get in the legal system because of the problems of proof mentioned above. It might have been difficult even to get an indictment in a case like that one.</p>
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<p>Yup.</p>
<p>Kids should know this by the time they get to college.</p>
<p>At many schools it is guilty until proven innocent if drugs or achohol is involved. I.e., if drugs or alcohol found in room, it is up to kid to prove it isnt his/hers, even if roommate, RA, etc have acccess to room.</p>
<p>It appalls me that the same schools that say no tolerance no rights re drugs or alchohol do not take same position re rape. </p>
<p>It seems that schools are going no tolerance for micky mouse stuff, but dont care about bigger issues.</p>
<p>Agreed, that the school can impose more draconian punishments than the legal system when there is not evidence that is needed for a criminal conviction. The school does not have to address the issue of whether assault, rape, harrassment occurred. They can focus on things that may have happened and can be proven that are against the school rules and nail the students for those things which may not be against the law. In the above case, the female will also be subject to discipline having broken laws as well, drinking (if that was not legal in her case), being inebriated, going into a residence without an invitation. </p>
<p>The consequences of the bigger stuff can be too severe for a school to undertake. If my son gets disciplined for a bottle of booze in is room that he claims is his roommate’s, I would not be happy about the situation, but I am not jumping in with a squadron of lawyers and a lawsuit. But if it’s an accusation of rape, that is a whole other situation. Especially if the law declines to prosecute for lack of evidence. I would sue the school if they made that an allegation. They can take disciplinary action for breaking a number of provable school rules if that is the case, but when you are talking a felony type crime, few parents will just leave that one go.</p>
<p>Just to clarify the Wake Forest story, because what was portrayed on TV doesn’t exactly match what actually happened per the police report…</p>
<p>The young woman involved was on a trip with the basketball team to the NCAA tournament. The night that Wake lost, she and several of the cheerleaders were hanging out, and apparently she had sex with one of the male cheerleaders. Later in the night/early morning, she was talking with two of the basketball players in the hall regarding oral sex, then accompanied them into their room. She willingly went in the bathroom with one of the players and then proceeded to perform oral sex on him (which she later cried sexual assault on).</p>
<p>There was a police report filed (the DA decided there wasn’t evidence to press charges) and an extensive hearing was held at Wake.</p>
<p>Cpt, </p>
<p>If the schools can not deal with felony crimes, they should tell student to report to polcie, NOT to deal with campus adjutication system. Encouraging women not to go to police is wrong.</p>
<p>They can, however, impose non legal sanctions. Throw out of dorm. Get rid of Frat. Campus santions as oppposed to legal sanctions. They choose not to.</p>