<p>Of course, Denzera, because we know all "wall-in-txt" posts are done by the same person...</p>
<p>Take3, you're missing my point. Those other programs I mentioned have financial aid. It doesn't matter if there is a higher fee for classes outside of Penns LPS because they give students institutional assistance up to the full amount of tuition. Do you understand? That means depending on your financial circumstances, a student may only have to pay for his/her room&board-even if that student takes classes through the other schools. The same is true about Brown, Yale, and several other programs.</p>
<p>Furthermore, in Penn's case, if your major does not offer classes in the LPS program, then you can attend as many classes as you want in the other colleges to compensate at the LPS tuition rate. Yale and Brown are even better than Penn when it comes to integration.
GS claims to be the most integrated program of it's kind. It's clearly not. The GS program probably was the most integrated non-trad program 10-15 years ago, but times have changed. There are many better alternatives. The fact that this thread is 35 pages and counting is clear evidence of how controversial the GS program is...I mean take a look at the pattern here. Ususally some new member like myself comes on and complains about how unfair the GS program is and how it discriminates against older students. Then one of you senior or junior members jumps on and tries to discredit the new member by arguing absurdities that are clearly fallacious. Ergo the same arguments and complaints keep coming up. The way I see it, you senior and junior members have some kind of vested interest in making sure that people don't see GS for what it is-a discriminating program for people with either too much money or too many loans. Seriously, you guys have been posting for years. Personally, I think you guys are either students who are trying to justify to yourselves that you weren't conned by GS, or you work for GS. I simply can't understand how anyone without a vested interest in the program wouldn't conceed that there is a problem. Seriously, they've tried to merge GS with CC a couple times now and each time they were met with hostility, alumni threats of withholding financial contributions, CC/Barnard students threatenning to withdraw, etc.. If you honestly think there's no discrimination or deeper issues going on at GS, then you are dillusional.</p>
<p>^
Robby, I've agreed with a lot of what you've said in the past, but you keep comparing Columbia GS to Yale and it's simply not a fair comparison. Yale's non-traditional program is called the Eli Whitney Program. Do you know how many Eli Whitney students were admitted to Yale last year? Three out of a couple hundred applicants. Yes, these students are completely integrated with Yale, but it's pretty clear that the program exists just so Yale can point to it and say "see, we have a non-traditional program too." </p>
<p>Unless you've discovered a cure for cancer during your break from school, it's pretty much a complete waste of time to apply to Yale as a non-traditional.</p>
<p>Can someone please provide some documented proof of all these allegations? Ie. CC alum/student threats (of CC/GS merger), specific classes and a website that indicates they are NOT available to GS students, etc?</p>
<p>I still don't understand all the hostility this subject brings up. Some people get full rides (PALS program), some people DO have ton of money and Columbia is worth is, some are willing (along with most of America) to take large loans for college (honestly, this is the BEST time to take out school loans, because the value of the dollar is going to greatly deflate over the coming years, making school half price). Everyone knows what they are getting into in regards to the financial aspects.</p>
<p>Yes the diplomas are different. But GS IS A DIFFERENT SCHOOL. No one said it's CC. Same as Barnard students get a Barnard diploma. Who cares.</p>
<p>If you are someone who is only going to Columbia for the brand then maybe GS is not the place for you, because it IS difficult to explain what GS is to people because most have never heard of it.</p>
<p>So to sum up. Please send documented links that show the academic discrimination. Otherwise stop participating in a smear campaign...</p>
<p>^
To chronicle some of the tension between CC and GS:</p>
<p>"In December 1968 the University Council decided, over the objections of some members of the Columbia College Faculty, to allow GS to grant the B.A. degree in addition to the B.S."</p>
<p>"GS releases few statistics about its incoming class, leading to speculation that GS lets in students with subpar statistics, which the University then 'hides.' This may also provide the grounds for accusations that GS is a "back door" to a Columbia undergraduate education. "</p>
<p>"In 2007, the administration floated the idea of a CC-GS merger."</p>
<p>I don't know the details of the proposed merger or why it failed but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the reasons previously expressed had something to do with it.</p>
<p>As for classes, I'm pretty sure most if not all classes offered to CC students are available to GS students.</p>
<p>"Furthermore, in Penn's case, if your major does not offer classes in the LPS program, then you can attend as many classes as you want in the other colleges to compensate at the LPS tuition rate."</p>
<p>This is not entirely accurate. This situation is discussed in LPS's Undergraduate Student Handbook, in the "Tuition Reduction Requests" section, page 53 et seq. See Student</a> Handbooks | College of Liberal and Professional Studies at The University of Pennsylvania - under "Undergraduate Program." One of the requirements for paying LPS tuition for a non-LPS course is as follows: "The course number is a specific core major requirement, listed on the major requirements worksheet as such. Electives within the major do not qualify for tuition reduction unless a student has already exhausted all eligible alternative options offered through LPS." (Page 54 of the source noted above.) So you clearly cannot just take as many non-LPS classes as you want and pay LPS tuition rates for them, even in your own major.</p>
<p>It's true that Penn LPS is going to be cheaper than Columbia GS for most people. After all, the base tuition at Penn LPS is lower assuming one takes only LPS courses (or gets the tuition reduction for day courses.) It's really a personal decision whether one wants to pay less for a program that's not fully integrated. It's pointless to argue about it over the Internet because different people have different priorities. (In my case, I value education enough to pay for it if there's any reasonable way to come up with the money.)</p>
<p>"The same is true about Brown, Yale, and several other programs."
"Yale and Brown are even better than Penn when it comes to integration."</p>
<p>I'm not even arguing with this. But as previously noted, both admit very few students. This is like saying being a Hollywood star is better than having a 9-5 office job. It is, but so few people get to be Hollywood stars that it doesn't really change anything.</p>
<p>Again, to be perfectly clear, I'm not criticizing Penn LPS in any way. Even the partial integration Penn LPS offers is a dramatic improvement over most university programs for non-traditional students.</p>
<p>Its obvious now that dude is on GSs payroll....
I heard someone say, they aren't bothered by housing...first a big LOL to that...its new york,whether u like it or not u will be bothered...u dont get on campus housing,the few off campus University apartment housing are barely available to GS yet guaranteed to CC students(discrimination) who dont get on campus housing or choose just to stay off campus.many GS students who get UAH live in the farmost blocks,and dont forget columbia is barely a centrally placed college,so u can imagine if people who are allegedly housed by the college live that far are complaining,what would u say if u dont get UAH..that aside,the quality of housing itself is discriminatory,most of GS gets put in unattended for UAH that they get to share with people who dont attend columbia or college for that matter i.e working people who just rent out the apartments from the college,so little scholarly atmosphere..yet CC gets exclusive housing(discrimination),where the building is shared,The university still goes on to ensure discrimination is perpetuated,instead of the building being a columbia building where all resources are distributed equally,u find GS getting thrown to the top floors and are left abandoned with the other tenants,unattended for unless they go on a hunger strike to where someone gets admitted to hospital..yet the sons and daughters of its so called true ivy league college alumni get exclusive low level floors with no non alma mater tenants,frequent renovations and proper security(swipe access to rooms,before i 4get i dont know if still this is the case but the university gave swipe access to CC,SEAS and Barnard and left out GS,such that as if u were some outsider or toddler,u had to be swiped into places by someone else(discrimination)),housing is as controversial as FA,trust me...
GS seems to pay alot of money to people to sell its brand but it isnt what they make it to be...doubtful poster or not...GS is controversial as we all can see,now imagine the politics once you are in....
Here are some links Commencement</a> 2005 | F A C E S of G S | General Studies Student Council | Columbia University in the City of New York<a href="some%20graduates%20candidly%20speak%20of%20their%20experiences">/url</a>
<a href="http://bwog.net%5B/url%5D">http://bwog.net</a> (search for GS topics and read the follow up comments)
[url=<a href="http://columbiaspectator.com%5DColumbia">http://columbiaspectator.com]Columbia</a> Spectator | News, sports, and entertainment coverage for the Morningside Heights community in New York City.<a href="same%20as%20above">/url</a>
[url=<a href="http://gslounge.com%5DGeneral">http://gslounge.com]General</a> Studies Lounge | Your College at Columbia University<a href="start%20with%20the%20student%20councils%20meeting%20minutes%20as%20its%20voice%20is%20that%20of%20the%20students,they%20are%20on%20the%20left,read%20them%20%20if%20possible%20start%20with%20the%20minutes%20from%20way%20back%20then,then%20proceed%20to%20read%20the%20topics%20on%20the%20website,there%20is%20a%20long%20one%20on%20housing%20problems%20there%20i%20believe">/url</a>
[url=<a href="http://boredatbutler.com%5Dboredatbutler.com%5B/url">http://boredatbutler.com]boredatbutler.com[/url</a>] (get to interact with CC kids live,post something along the lines GS=CC or GS is part of columbia and see the proceeding posts.....)
There is a reason why people are advised to take at least 12months in the application process,those links plus this frankensthread am sure are enough for a sane person to say no am not applying,or yes am applying and i acknowledge that there are problems but inspite of that plus the astronomical amount of tuition and barely any FA,i think I can take it and hope that the 4 years fly by quickly as those alumni craved for other than being in denial...</p>
<p>signout
doubtful poster as earlier alleged :)</p>
<p>I've read this entire Frankenthread and am still interested in applying to Columbia GS.</p>
<p>Housing in NYC is less of an issue than people think. I've had to look for housing here several times. I've consistently been able to find shared housing costing between $600 and $850 per month. If you're from somewhere else, this may seem like a lot of money. But places with cheap housing usually require one to own a car. NYC allows you to take the money you would have spent on a car, minus the cost of a MetroCard, and to roll it into housing.</p>
<p>In any case, in NYC, you don't expect to live near the places you have to be or want to be. The rule of thumb is that if you'd heard of a neighborhood before moving to NYC, you can't afford it. It's normal to have a substantial commute on the subway. Columbia's location is actually relatively good in this regard. There are places in upper Manhattan that are relatively affordable while being reasonably livable and safe.</p>
<p>Again, I am not employed or otherwise paid by Columbia University. I do not speak for Columbia University in any way. Additionally, it is trivial to verify that I have asked numerous questions on these forums regarding the next steps in my own education.</p>
<p>^ I agree. Actually, housing opportunities in NYC is GREAT right now. Best time to move to the city. Granted it's never going to be "cheap" but relativly speaking you can find amazing deals.</p>
<p>Though, i was taken back by the link to the "Faces of GS" that 'Sez' posted above. Some of the comments from students were a little shocking. Especially since they were edited and approved by the GS Student Council and reside on columbia.edu - </p>
<p>I'm still excited though about the GS program, it is definitely offering me personally a great opportunity!</p>
<p>From the Faces of GS link I found the following quote to be troubling: "HeĀd also like to see more pre-professional advisement for GS students, such as pre-law and pre-med career counseling. ĀMost of that is more readily available to CC students. I once went to a pre-law seminar but was told I wasnĀt eligible to sit in because I was a GS student.Ā"</p>
<p>I've been considering going to law school when my undergrad is finished. Some of the other schools I've applied to transfer to offer extensive pre-law counseling and seminars. If it is still the case that the same counseling provided to CC students is not provided to GS students, that would be very disappointing indeed.</p>
<p>I've been accepted to GS but every time I hear something like this, I cringe.</p>
<p>Um, as far as I know GS offers both pre-law and pre-med advising; and from what I've heard it's quite good. Is there a chance these were outdated comments? Note, I haven't had first-hand experience with either. </p>
<p>As far as housing, NYC is never cheap. I would say take caution when finding "great deals." I don't know about others, but I study late and there are some parts of town I just wouldn't want to walk through late at night.</p>
<p>I dont think its wise to not apply and i dont think i've implied that at all,its a great program and arguably the best non-trad. program there is and i would encourage anyone to go for it,just that u do so with all the information at hand,both the good and the bad,not what paid GSers say...and as to the unedited comments from the GS faces,its basically what the council still tries to do today,make it out there by all means that there are problems in GS...i also want to believe college is what u make it to be,i have heard GSers say they dont like GS coz of the general studies in the name or studium generalia as some would say as it makes them appear as if they are doing easy general stuff,and i know for sure some CC kids look down on GS coz of that as much as they take the same classes and they quickly justify themselves with stats,am not sure of the numbers now but once it was between 50-60% the number of GSers who took english or history as their major...to some,that is not what the ivy league is for,and the GS for 'generally stupid' always popped up.i know now economics has become popular too..if u r the type of person who isnt bothered with the politics and u have a plan as to how u will finance your education,i think u would have a great experience at columbia...home-->car--->college and vice versa time will fly fast...i also dont think its a good idea for a full time student to live so far away from campus,butler is a very important resource..</p>
<p>
[quote]
i would encourage anyone to go for it,just that u do so with all the information at hand,both the good and the bad,not what paid GSers say...
[/quote]
Take3 isn't saying anything that previous posters in the thread haven't already said.</p>
<p>People can express an opinion without having a hidden agenda. this board is pretty good, generally, about calling people out.</p>
<p>I dont think i mentioned any names..and i was just reading through and if am not wrong i think take3 hasn't started attending GS yet nor have u denzera..or are just pretending.</p>
<p>Correct - I have not started at GS or even applied yet. I don't currently have enough money.</p>
<p>In fact, I want to hear opposing viewpoints. It's useful to hear both sides of the story to make an informed decision.</p>
<p>It's precisely because I haven't applied yet that it's worth my time to investigate some of the issues noted here. Much of this investigation was of readily available information, such as the Columbia GS and Penn LPS websites.</p>
<p>Iām currently enrolled in my second semester at GS. Itās good and bad. I have great Columbia housing (apartment) with a great roommate 8 blocks away from campus. Everyone in this building is GS. Not a bad living situation at all and itās pretty cheap. Still sometimes I wish I could live in the dorms, which is not an option. Iām only little older (started columbia at 20) than a CC kid so it does appeal to me. </p>
<p>As far as the classes go, there are only three classes that Iām aware of that I have to take with only GSers-- Lit Hum, Contemporary Civilization and University writing. The first two I donāt actually have to take (can be substituted by other classes) so itās really only one class. I donāt feel discriminated against in this respect. Every class I have includes people from the four colleges.</p>
<p>The CC and SEAS kids in my classes are great and Iāve made a lot of friends. I donāt feel looked down upon at all. We all take classes together so itās pretty hard for anyone to have a superior attitude. </p>
<p>Financial aid for GS SUCKS. They definitely do discriminate with this. This is the only thing I really hate about GS. Columbia has definitely done a great job incorporating GS into the university except for this.</p>
<p>GS is so expensive that Iām looking into transferring to a top university after I finish two years here. With a 4.0 from Columbia I think Iāll have a good chance. If it werenāt for the horrible financial aid I wouldnāt transfer. I do love it here.</p>
<p>If anyone has any questions Iāll try to check this post and answer them.</p>
<p>Wow that is great news for you guys. Iām still waiting for award letter. All the financials of school costs, and moving costs (from Los Angeles), and living costs in NYC, and etc etc are all starting to feel very scary. Can I enlist in the Army from now till August? Darnā¦</p>