Columbia ED vs Penn ED?

Hey everyone, I’m a rising senior living in NJ, and I’m caught between these two schools to potentially apply ED for. I originally thought Columbia ED was what I was going to do, but after comparing the schools (acceptance rate, forums on CC, etc) I’m not so sure anymore. Columbia is a very high reach for me (as is Penn, though that may be slightly more likely), and I have heard conflicting reviews about the school. (However, I do consider NYC like a second home… but I do want a bit more of a traditional college experience which Columbia may not offer as much as Penn).

I’m an Asian female interested in the humanities who will apply to the Arts and Sciences colleges in either school, potentially with an Undecided or humanities major, maybe on the premed track. I’d love to hear all of your opinions, on Penn and Columbia and both! Both are amazing schools and it’s a really tough decision.

(Hopefully I put this in the right thread?)

Let me address your point regarding a a traditional college experience. Don’t let Columbia’s urban location fool you – the University offers the same bonding and collegial experience that you find elsewhere. And probably more so. Columbia has a beautiful campus that serves as a centrifugal force for undergraduates. While the campus is not as sprawling as other campuses (think Dartmouth and Cornell), it is a central hub for virtually all undergraduates. In fact, mostly everyone spends most of their time on campus. As a result, a lot of undergrads develop tight and lasting friendships. The magic that Columbia offers on top of that experience is an unparalleled academically rigorous, intellectually curious and socially aware milieu. Columbia also offers the occasional opportunity to explore and connect with the greatest city on earth.

I literally am in the exact same situation as you down to the major. That’s really funny. Only difference is that I’m a white guy lol. I am also torn between Columbia and Penn ED. For me, I’ll probably go Penn because I have legacy which is huge there, but I liked Columbia a bit more tbh. And I agree with Plato’s comment, particularly on the academic environment.

@Plato23 Thanks for your comment (esp as I see you’re a Columbia grad!). I was just a bit worried b/c it seems like Columbia has been given kind of a bad rep for the social scene, as a lot of people say it’s kind of scattered and a lot of people go into the city rather than develop a sense of community on campus. (I do agree about the campus point though – it’s gorgeous.) If you have more pointers about Columbia’s social scene and the feel of the campus, I’d love to hear your thoughts!

@jarrett211 AHH LOL good luck to the both of us! And yes I heard Penn legacy is huge, esp for ED haha

These are both absolutely wonderful schools. When I applied to college I ended up in the fortunate position of being able to choose between Penn, Columbia and a few other ivies so perhaps my experience can be of some help to you.

After visiting both schools there were a few things about Penn I just couldn’t pass up. One, as you mentioned @shadyconcepts , is the campus feel. Penn has a beautiful, perfectly manicured 300 acre campus that is only a 15 minute walk away from the heart of America’s fifth largest city, Philadelphia. On Locust Walk or in the Quad, you feel like you’re in the middle of a tree-lined suburban campus yet you still have access to all of the amenities you could want from Urban living. As a student, it can be hard to pull yourself away from Penn’s bustling campus life but Penn’s proximity to every other fascinating, diverse, and exciting neighborhood in Philly makes it so much easier to visit other parts of Philly and still be back in time and energized to study or write a paper at the end of your exploration. Because Penn’s campus is so spectacular and spacious, you get the “true college experience” without ever having to pass up on the great restaurants, art, music festivals, cool clubs, and other attractions an exceptional city has to offer. The Penn experience is quintessentially traditional and yet punctuated by the benefits of a thoroughly modern, forward looking university, adjacent to the center of a vibrant metropolis.

The One University Policy at Penn also contributes to an incomparable, interdisciplinary, and profoundly intellectual experience. As an undergrad in Penn’s College, you can take classes in any of the other 3 undergrad schools as well as most of Penn’s graduate and professional schools. With every one of Penn’s schools on one campus, you also have easy access to these different departments and disciplines for both study and research. Because the barriers between each entity at Penn are so low, you can easily major in the humanities in the College and do incredible research at Penn Med, America’s oldest medical school and one of only two Top 5 med schools on the same campus as its undergraduate counterpart. Penn is also home to amazing centers like the Wistar Institute in which you can partake in the groundbreaking research that is at the forefront of Cancer health care. Furthermore, the one university policy ensures that all of Penn’s students are taking classes with one another, allowing for a level of intellectual cross pollination that would be impossible to find a university with fewer offerings or greater barriers between disciplines. Simply put, the way a Business student, an English student, and an Engineering student will approach a problem in a History class differs widely, meaning you are exposed to an unimaginable number of different perspectives and ways of thinking in every class you take. It was the ability to take classes at the Law school while conducting research at Penn’s school of government all while pursuing my BA in a couple of departments in the humanities that attracted me so strongly to Penn. The resources of the university are so easily accessible to every Penn student that truly anything is possible. And with every student living on or with a couple of blocks of Penn’s campus, the vibrancy of the Penn experience is felt around the clock.

Penn is also the Social Ivy which leads to a really strong emphasis on building friendships and relationships that will last well beyond your years at Penn. While it’s true you will make friends anywhere (and college can be as fun or as boring as you make it no matter where you go), Penn’s reputation as the Social Ivy inspires students to take time from their books to engage in an unimaginable number of exclusively social activities in addition to their clubs, extracurriculars, volunteer initiatives and more. Community is central to the very core of Penn.

Penn also has no core- curriculum. Instead, students choose from a wide variety of courses to fulfill Sector Requirements and Foundational Approaches requirements, ensuring that students are exposed to all of the “practical” and “ornamental” aspects of education about which Ben Franklin, Penn’s founder, wanted students to learn. The flexibility of the curriculum allowed me to earn two majors and two minors while still exploring the breadth of subjects the University had to offer.

All that being said, it is also important to keep in mind that Penn has a very preprofessional atmosphere. With 3 of the 4 undergrad schools relating to actual professions (Business, Engineering, and Nursing), there is a strong focus on how your degree will lead to a job afterwards. I personally loved having so many pre-professional students around me because it helped me focus my interests towards my future goals, especially when it came time to hunt for jobs. And thankfully Penn Career Services are outstanding and available to all Penn students, regardless of school or major. Thus, if you decide at the end of four years you want to go into I-banking or join a tech start up with your sociology degree, you will be able to partake in all of the same recruiting opportunities as your friends in Wharton and Engineering. Or if you decide Graduate school or Med school is the next step, Penn’s career services will help you every step of the way there as well. These are the senior surveys for the most recent graduating classes: http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/reports.php. This is the most comprehensive information released by any university in the Ivy League and it demonstrates Penn’s confidence in its students’ outcomes.

With regard to ED, however, you need to make sure that the school to which you apply is your absolute number one choice. College is a huge financial expense and spending four years anywhere is a huge commitment. ED is a binding commitment and you want to make sure you’re committing to a place and an experience you will truly love.

Also- feel free to check out another thread on which I say many similar things about what makes Penn special: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-pennsylvania/1792191-why-is-upenn-different.html#latest

Finally- I leave you with this video that is slowly starting to become a little old, but still captures the Penn experience quite well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGpOizUIY60

Good luck! You honestly cannot go wrong with either Columbia or Penn. Both are among a small handful of truly outstanding universities with opportunities for every different type of person.

Thank you so much @PennCAS2014 !! I will definitely look more into Penn and your threads and keep what you said in mind.

Anyone have a similar argument/perspective on Columbia? Would be much appreciated!

What Penn CAS said above is pretty much true for most of the ivies, at least Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Penn. Same at Columbia where the College, Engineering, Barnard are completetly integrated in dorms, classes, research, social life, etc. You take any course at the university provided you meet the prerequisites. Columbia also has some of the top graduate programs in the nation also right on its campus for business, law, social work, journalism, film,music, theater, architecture, etc. What is different about Columbia is its beautiful small intimate urban campus, as opposed to acres and acres campuses. Columbia is also the second smallest undergrate school in the ivies, again as opposed to thousands of freshman. Every building, dorm, library is in walking distance. Because everthing is so close, you get to know people easily. Also the core curriculum that every Columbia student must take unites students not only on campus, but forever as alumni. They are some of the most interesting courses you will ever take. Its location in Manhattan also is a huge draw both socially and opportunity wise as jobs and interships are limitless both during the school year and afterwards. Columbia is considered to be more competetive in terms of admission on par with Yale. Columbia has the most applications per seat in the ivies, and the second lowest admit rate only behind Harvard.

^ Columbia’s not the second smallest. It is right in the middle of the 8 Ivies in its undergraduate size

Dartmouth: 4276
Princeton: 5323
Yale: 5430
Columbia: 6084
Brown: 6455
Harvard: 6722
Penn: 9712
Cornell: 14393

^^ The size that people refer to for Columbia will often depend on the context, due to the historical relationships we have inherited. I have seen references for up to 7300 undergrads at Columbia, in which case they must be including every undergrad school (CC+ SEAS+GS+BC) – but this is usually from non-serious sources. I have seen references to 4500 undergrads, in which case they are just counting CC alone. But I would agree that the most common number floating around these days is 6000-6100 (CC+SEAS).

But at one time in the past, we commonly referred only to the CC number. For the longest time, up until Columbia went coed in 1983 and for a several years afterwards, Columbia was commonly referred to as the smallest undergrad college within the Ivy's (in the media and elsewhere). At that time CC was only 750/class, and SEAS was 250/class. So even with both, we were the smallest by a slight amount. But it was commonly understood that when people said Columbia was smallest in the Ivy, it was referring to CC only; in which case we were the smallest by a comfortable margin. But then after becoming co-ed, both CC and SEAS gradually grew over the next 20 years to its current size of 1150/class and 350/class respectively. But even as both schools grew, at least for awhile, one could still claim being the smallest in the Ivy by excluding SEAS numbers, as was traditionally done. Once CC grew to be bigger than Dartmouth by a slight amount, people made less of this fact. I'm not sure, whether it was due to the fact that being second smallest was simply not as interesting as being the smallest; or perhaps the mental perception of CC and SEAS grew more integrated and harder to separate than in the past. 

The above distinction was due to the fact that they are 2 separate and very distinct schools within Columbia. Although some of the other Ivy's have a SEAS also, I believe the Columbia structure is more rigid and separate than most of the other Ivy's. As such, historically, it has been very difficult for a student to transfer from SEAS to CC. 

As often the case when discussing Columbia, there are several sides present. The last poster is correct: 6100 is the common number which we should use for the size of Columbia. But when drilling down and talking to someone who wishes to go to CC, rather than SEAS, the previous poster is correct to emphasize to him or her that within this huge university, there is a beautiful, self-contained, small liberal arts college at its core, with 4500 students.

OP, obviously you could not go wrong here in terms of choosing between Columbia and Penn if you are admitted to both.

But the fact that you are not 100% sold on one means that you should not apply ED to either of them.

For what it’s worth, I think that the two are very close peers: Wharton is a world-class department but in some other areas Columbia might be a bit stronger and has the famous Core, so they probably balance out fairly evenly in terms of overall undergrad academic quality.

If you are admitted to both, I’d choose based on fit and finances. Main point: don’t apply ED unless you fall in love with one of them to the point that you’d choose it over any other school.

Thanks for all of your input guys! @prezbucky I definitely hear you out, but maybe I could gradually learn to really love one school over the other, who knows :slight_smile: At this point I think it’s a bit more likely for me to get into Penn, which might in turn cause me to like it more, but I’m still very much in love with Columbia. Any other input from alumni or any other people is always welcome!!

Well, you could always get your Bachelor’s degree at one and then go to grad school at the other. hehe

Just to clarify, Ricck kind of confuses my point about Penn’s one university policy with reference to the way other universities are integrated. Penn is unique in that it has four different undergrad schools (the college, wharton, nursing, engineering) that all offer very different types of courses and in which students can all take courses. In contrast, harvard and yale each have one undergraduate school. Columbia has Barnard, CC, and GS (which is more like Penn’s School of Liberal and Professional Studies) which will have some overlap in the types of courses they offer (in fact GS students take the same classes as CC students, with the same professors) and SEAS which offers engineering courses. Thus Columbia has 3 liberal arts colleges and a school of engineering while Penn has a liberal arts college, a business school, a school of engineering, and a school of nursing, each teaching students to look at questions and problems from very different perspectives pedagogically than the others.

Additionally, while registering for a course in a graduate or professional school at Penn is as simple as singing into PennInTouch (the online course selection portal), other universities may require a petition to be able to take courses in a graduate school, or it might not be an option at all. Harvard’s cross registration policies are actually kind of complicated: http://coursecatalog.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=CourseCatalog&pageid=icb.page526461. And you may need to petition for credit towards your degree. At Columbia, students aren’t actually permitted to take classes in the law school: “Columbia undergraduates may generally take up to four classes toward their degree in most of the graduate and professional schools at Columbia, with the exception of those at Columbia Law School and the Columbia Medical Center.” https://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/ask/faq/topic/379. So while many universities are becoming increasingly open to their undergrads, no university in the Ivy League is equally as open and integrated as Penn.

Also, cross registering can pose problems when you try to receive your degree because colleges will usually only allow you to count up to 4 non-homeschool courses towards your major. But what’s awesome about Penn’s One University Policy, is that courses are often cross listed between The College and certain graduate schools meaning that you don’t need to cross register at all because the class is housed in both a College department and a grad school department. Take this course, for example, Law in American Life, which is housed in Penn’s history department and the Law School: http://www.history.upenn.edu/courses/hist362-law-american-life-0. That is the kind of opportunity you may not find elsewhere.

In terms of social integration, Penn is just slightly more integrated I would say. Barnard women, for example, need to be signed into columbia dorms if they don’t live there (the same is true of columbia students at Barnard dorms). But a Penn engineering student could easily go meet their nursing friend in any dorm on campus. Also, very few Barnard women live in Columbia dorms and few Columbia students live in Barnard dorms (see links below). But there is no division at Penn between schools about where one can live or go on campus based on their affiliation with a school. And because Penn’s campus is big and beautiful but still compact enough to fit within just about 8 city blocks (34th street to 40th street between Chestnut and Baltimore avenues), you’re constantly socializing with friends and meeting new acquaintances.
Some Rules on who can live where at columbia: http://barnard.edu/reslife/housing-options/exchange
Rules about visitors between undergrad schools: http://barnard.edu/reslife/policies/guests

Also, it’s true penn isn’t the smallest Ivy but the student/faculty ratio is 5:1 which keeps class sizes small (http://www.upenn.edu/about/facts Scroll to the part about Faculty). Further, Penn does a lot to make its roughly 10,000 undergrads feel like they’re part of a small, intimate student body. The residential college system, for example, fosters community in addition to extracurriculars and the incredible social scene.

All that being said again, i have to agree with the above commenters that if you aren’t 100% set on a school, applying ED is a mistake. But even more than that, both schools are great and you can’t go wrong- so focus heavily on where you think you might be happiest. rant finished

Thanks @PennCAS2014 ! your comments are really enlightening and informative. thanks everyone so far this is a really difficult choice ah

@prezbucky " Wharton is a world class department but in some other areas columbia might be better". Of course this is a correct statement but there are many other areas other than business where Penn might be a bit better than columbia and of course just as many areas where columbia might be better. I agree that both school are pretty evenly matched academically.

^^^ Yeah, I regard them as “same level” peers for undergraduate education (overall quality). I have Chicago with them.

Trying to “rank” the Ivies and other elite schools in terms of overall quality is probably a waste of time – they’re all very good – but it’s fun anyway. :wink:

@prezbucky Agreed! I’m applying to UChicago EA so yep :wink:

You are also applying to lower reaches, a couple of match-type schools and a safety, right?

Lower reaches might include schools like Notre Dame, Johns Hopkins, Rice, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon or OOS at the top state schools.

Matches might include OOS at the second tier of state schools, U of Rochester, Brandeis, Boston U, Wake Forest, Tulane.

Virtual safeties for you might include Rutgers or TCNJ.

That way you are covered, just in case you do not gain admission to Columbia, Penn or Chicago.