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BME is not a life science, and most engineers don’t pursue a PhD. As usual, I don’t see how that is at all helpful. </p>
<p>I’m especially puzzled considering neither Columbia nor Duke appears in that link. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>It’s because I totally blew it, mixing up Columbia and Chicago. 
I also thought B had something to do with biology, silly me. ;)</p>
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<p>this is a pathetic means to compare colleges. The goal of colleges should not be to drive students into phd programs who then waste their lives as academics. The idea of a phd frankly appalls me, and in any good college only a small proportion of students should ultimately go back into academia and become professors. A ton of people at Columbia who could easily go on to get phds do not do so, because they go to professional school, get lucrative jobs, start a business etc, this is the case at many top national universities. What the rankings might reveal is partly a lack of professional school placement / good job placement that is pushing more people to get phds, as opposed to the college creating the greatest thinkers. It might reveal the academic predilection of the student body rather than their academic/intellectual abilities (which is more important).</p>
<p>I don’t know why LACs are so adamant about pushing these phd rankings, as they could be taken as either a negative or positive.</p>
<p>“only a small proportion of students should ultimately go back into academia and become professors.”</p>
<p>Most PhDs go into industry, especially in the Life Sciences.</p>
<p>It really depends on what you want to do in the future. I know that’s difficult as a high school senior to decide the career path you want to go down, but it would be extremely helpful to have a sense of what you like and what you don’t like.</p>
<p>First, Columbia SEAS hasn’t changed from 5 years ago, except for the students entering into the class. This, of course, makes a huge difference because you’ll be exposed to more intellectually stimulating peers, but the engineering school itself (faculty, research, etc.) has stayed the same (you can bring up the Northwest Science Building but that’s coming online later this year). The trend of selectivity in the past few years has less to do with the quality of education from the faculty but more so to do with the overall prestige of Columbia University. </p>
<p>If you want to do medicine or biomedical engineering, Duke is the obvious choice. It’s BME program is ranked behind JHU’s and it offers the flexibility of incorporating a premed curriculum. The SEAS BME department, for the class of 2012 and later, has precluded the premed option for many students because of the number of requirements. They replaced classes that were premed requirements with biomedical engineering specific ones. It was already a rigorous program, but the program is now brutal for students pursuing BME and premed.</p>
<p>For finance, Columbia beats Duke. However, if you have no interest in this field whatsoever, then Duke would offer greater flexibility in curriculum. In Duke, changing between Trinity and Pratt is easy, and you have the flexibility of majoring in humanities and the social sciences if you find that engineering isn’t for you. In SEAS, this is significantly more difficult, because you apply as a regular transfer student to the College. If you find that engineering really isn’t for you (which probably means you weren’t interested and didn’t get A’s in your classes), it’ll be difficult to transfer and the admissions committee won’t even consider your application if your GPA is below a minimum threshold. </p>
<p>The community is different from Columbia and Duke. I’ve visited Duke once, and it seemed to have a more traditional college feel, i.e. fields, parties, and isolated campus. This can definitely get boring, but this can also breed community. As for Columbia, you can enjoy the city - that is if you have the time. From my experience, we, as engineers, are constantly working on problem sets or other forms of work. This is no different from engineers at other schools, but a major selling point (New York City) isn’t really pertinent to engineering students. The fact is that, we can only go out at most once during the entire week and few students who go out regularly do well. Keep in mind that Columbia is not downtown and it takes approximately 40 minutes to get to the area that NYU and Pace are in, which is much more lively, so transportation time is not trivial for students. You can always hang out in Morningside Heights, but it’s more residential.</p>
<p>Another point is that you can always live in New York City but you cannot replicate the college experience. Columbia definitely has a unique city experience, but that’s not to say you can’t live in the city once you get older (mid to late 20’s). You’ll never be able to have the undergraduate experience again. </p>
<p>My main point is that you should target the school to your career goals, and if you’re not sure what you want to do, then give yourself the most flexibility possible. You don’t want to be stuck doing engineering for 4 years and wishing you were somewhere else. My secondary point is that New York City hasn’t been an integral part of my college experience. Columbia College students definitely have a lighter workload than engineers (with a higher curve) so the city is more accessible to them. </p>
<p>That said, I’m satisfied with my college experience thus far. I want to work in the financial services and I know that sacrifice is necessary for success. I’m proud of my academic accomplishments and the work I’ve put in to get where I am now. Plus, no one really regrets working hard in college after they graduate. If you want to work in the financial services, Columbia is the better choice (College or Engineering).</p>
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<p>speak for yourself, I have been able to do well in class (as an engineer working on wall street next year), get heavily involved in a few organizations, go into the city 1-2 times a week, sleep a lot and still find time to just chill around campus, go to campus bars, campus events and spend time with friends. If I prioritized the city more, I’d be able to go into the city 3x a week.</p>
<p>It’s a matter of managing time well and working smartly/efficiently. Like taking easier electives, taking requirements with easier profs, getting a head start on assignments, going to office hours to get something clarified before you slave away on a problem set, working in groups and splitting up work, finding the solutions manual so that you don’t spend your entire night on one problem. Getting enough sleep and going to classes that matter, so that you know how to solve problems and what to expect, doing some work during the day on the weekends. </p>
<p>All this allows me to complete problem sets even with a heavy class load and still find time to do everything else. Life would be easier in the college, but aiming to do well in seas does not preclude you from anything. If you want to be valedictorian or take the most difficult classes then you will have to sacrifice a lot. But time management and good strategy goes a long way to minimizing my effort level / time spent doing work without sacrificing gpa.</p>
<p>Okay okay okay I’m going to Columbia sorrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy!</p>
<p>Confidentialcoll. That’s a very smart way of organizing your schedule. Just as an inquiry, what are you majoring in? I think what you major in will have a huge impact on your college life.</p>
<p>BME is not a major that you can do well in without putting in a lot of time. It’s probably the most time consuming and rigorous engineering curriculum. If you did EMS or EEE, then you’d have more time to enjoy the city.</p>
<p>… go to campus bars … taking easier electives, taking requirements with easier profs … working in groups and splitting up work, finding the solutions manual … going to classes that matter … minimizing my effort level …"</p>
<p>I think I’d rather hire beard tax.</p>
<p>Thanks - still a little confused though. I applied to Columbia as a BME major, but I am also interested in IEOR Financial Engineering. How difficult is it to transfer into this program from a BME major? I heard there are limited spots. Either way, SEAS has other majors I would consider (Applied Fizzix/Math). </p>
<p>Relative to other engineering majors in SEAS, how rigorous is BME?</p>
<p>Also, could a Columbia student comment on the overall experience? Are you happy there? How long did it take to adjust? Did you feel overwhelmed? What is a typical weeknight? weekend night?</p>
<p>vossron - you don’t believe in time maximization? or mckinsey’s 80-20 rule?</p>
<p>in the end learning how and when to take shortcuts makes life manageable. i’d hire concoll from what i’ve read on here. </p>
<p>there are plenty of theories that say the happiness of your workers dictates how good the work is. (and not just marx.)</p>
<p>I might be tempted to hire the candidate that I thought learned the most in college. ;)</p>
<p>how do you define “learned the most in college”? narrowly as in book learning? </p>
<p>i learned more from interacting with friends on campus and how to express and negotiate myself in a professional setting than i learned in classes.</p>
<p>regardless, i appreciate your perspective, your contributions to this thread are novel.</p>
<p>It’s more like favoring the candidate who appeared not to consistently look for the easy way out, who appeared not to be lazy.</p>
<p>Perhaps no one’s contributions here are old hat. 
But I’m a lightweight compared to most here, having earned only a BS from a second tier state school, years ago.</p>
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<p>what makes you think I haven’t learned anything, I just find simpler ways to learn things. Taking a bad professor who is difficult to follow, makes your classes more difficult and you do not come out learning more. I haven’t found a strict relationship between time spent on something and learning, there is obviously a threshold of time required to learn something, but that threshold is usually low if you know what to learn and how.</p>
<p>I would probably not want to work for someone like vossron (if you were being serious). The fact is, that the knowledge you memorize in college classes is quickly forgotten no matter who you are, but the techniques and intuition remain. Some of the most important “intuitions” that I’ve picked up, have been taught in 5 or 10 minutes in a single class. I’ve wasted double digit hours on a single problem set before, and haven’t taken much from it other than some pride that the road was challenging. </p>
<p>And this is just sticking to the academic side of things. On top of this, there are interpersonal skills, learning to ask for help, learning to collaborate well, figuring out how to efficiently use a system of resources etc. These are non-academic life-skills, which can separate analysts from managers and good leaders/managers/entrepreneurs from bad ones. In college people sometimes forget to hone these skills.</p>
<p>HawaiinPunch, I can answer some of the questions that you’ve posted. Keep in mind that it’s from my perspective as a student with straight A’s, so my view on academic success and learning may be different from admissionsgeek’s and confidentialcoll’s. However, I can give you the perspective of what it takes to get an A in a course, how to learn the material well, and simultaneously minimize wasted effort.</p>
<p>You aren’t forced to major as what you declared when you applied. Actually, over the summer session (if you attend), the admissions officers asked us what our majors would be, so you’ll have the opportunity to put down what you’re interested in. The financial engineering program is competitive to get into. Once you’re a sophomore, you can apply in the fall as well as the spring. In general, my friends who got in (without networking with the IEOR administrators and getting strings pulled) had above a 3.7 GPA overall and around a 4.0 GPA in quantitative classes (Calculus, Linear Algebra, Probability, Physics). Financial Engineering is a rigorous program with difficult classes and a lot of mathematics and programming, but BME takes the cake for rigor in the engineering school. It’s notorious for being time-consuming with a curve of around C+/B-. Essentially, don’t expect to go to Harvard Medical School in the BME program at Columbia unless you are in the top 10%.</p>
<p>If you’re interested in pre-med, many students take the Applied Math route, because it has the fewest requirements of the engineering majors and allows students to complete the pre-med classes. That said, Applied Math is also quite difficult because the required classes are tough (curved once again to C+/B-) and PDE, Intro to Dynamical Systems, and Analysis can take upwards of 15 hours a week each.</p>
<p>In terms of student life, I have a skewed view of students who are all doing quite well. For example, an engineering curriculum can take upwards of 15-25 hours of work a week. This is not Facebook/talk to friends/AIM work, but actually concentrating and learning the material.
Trust me, I try to minimize wasted effort as much as possible, by learning from the book when the professor is horrible, using answer keys when the algebra is extremely tedious and doesn’t contribute to learning of the material, as well as brainstorming with friends on computer programs before we start.</p>
<p>Most of my friends and engineers I know don’t have an incredible amount of time for fun. If they do, their GPA’s are usually hurt by it and they have lower than a B+ average. If you’re fine with that (especially in the IEOR department) you can get away with going out several times a week. However, if you’re shooting for an A, then prepared to master the material and really understand it. I’m not even sure if admissionsgeek is an engineer, but I can definitely say that school has taught me to mature as well as given me the quantitative ability to tackle tough brainteasers, write some sick recursive CS code, and go through mathematical proofs on Wikipedia. These might not be real-world skills, but I’m sure that the ability to look at problems from a quantitative perspective doesn’t hurt, though maturing and understanding the professional world is more important in the workplace.</p>
<p>PM me if you have any other questions.</p>
<p>HawaiinPunch, I can answer some of the questions that you’ve posted. Keep in mind that it’s from my perspective as a student with straight A’s, so my view on academic success and learning are different from admissionsgeek’s and confidentialcoll’s. However, I can give you the perspective of what it takes to get an A in a course, how to learn the material well, and simultaneously minimize wasted effort.</p>
<p>You aren’t forced to major as what you declared when you applied. Actually, over the summer session (if you attend), the admissions officers asked us what our majors would be, so you’ll have the opportunity to put down what you’re interested in. The financial engineering program is competitive to get into. Once you’re a sophomore, you can apply in the fall as well as the spring. In general, my friends who got in (without networking with the IEOR administrators and getting strings pulled) had above a 3.7 GPA overall and around a 4.0 GPA in quantitative classes (Calculus, Linear Algebra, Probability, Physics). Financial Engineering is a rigorous program with difficult classes and a lot of mathematics and programming, but BME takes the cake for rigor in the engineering school. It’s notorious for being time-consuming with a curve of around C+/B-. Essentially, don’t expect to go to Harvard Medical School in the BME program at Columbia unless you are in the top 10%.</p>
<p>If you’re interested in pre-med, many students take the Applied Math route, because it has the fewest requirements of the engineering majors and allows students to complete the pre-med classes. That said, Applied Math is also quite difficult because the required classes are tough (curved once again to C+/B-) and PDE, Intro to Dynamical Systems, and Analysis can take upwards of 15 hours a week each.</p>
<p>In terms of student life, I have a skewed view of students who are all doing quite well. For example, an engineering curriculum can take upwards of 15-25 hours of work a week. This is not Facebook/talk to friends/AIM work, but actually concentrating and learning the material.
Trust me, I try to minimize wasted effort as much as possible, by learning from the book when the professor is horrible, using answer keys when the algebra is extremely tedious and doesn’t contribute to learning of the material, as well as brainstorming with friends on computer programs before we start.</p>
<p>Most of my friends and engineers I know don’t have an incredible amount of time for fun. If they do, their GPA’s are usually hurt by it and they have lower than a B+ average. If you’re fine with that (especially in the IEOR department) you can get away with going out several times a week. However, if you’re shooting for an A, then prepared to master the material and really understand it. I’m not even sure if admissionsgeek is an engineer, but I can definitely say that school has taught me to mature as well as given me the quantitative ability to tackle tough brainteasers, write some sick recursive CS code, and go through mathematical proofs on Wikipedia. These might not be real-world skills, but I’m sure that the ability to look at problems from a quantitative perspective doesn’t hurt, though maturing and understanding the professional world is more important in the workplace.</p>
<p>PM me if you have any other questions.</p>
<p>hey beard - yep not an engineer, i am pretty explicit about this in many posts, but i know engineers, their curriculum and also what their weekly life is like.</p>
<p>i think your 15-25 hrs is pretty accurate. though i am not quite daunted by that number.</p>
<p>i will offer as counterpoint friends who were BME, MechE, ChemE, Applied Math and Financial Engineering - every single one of them graduated in the engineering version of PBK, most were heavily involved in student life (all served on the engineering student council among other activities), graduated with GPA’s north of 3.6, went out a few nights a week and were probably my best friends at school and when they went out they let loose like everyone else. out of the lot i’d say only one of them is a true genius, the rest got by on hard work. today most are in financial services/consulting or something of the like, with one kid doing an md/phd. all brilliant kids who in the end love columbia probably more than most because they were able to experience it fully.</p>
<p>sure there were some nights that they disappeared into someone’s suite to work all night on a problem set (as someone that only worked during the school week it was always a bit weird to be out on a saturday while friends were in), and engineering as well as the natural sciences there is a higher bar for minimal work - if you don’t do it you’re screwed; humanities there are greater variants of course to get away with a decent grade (but i’d say i worked 15-20 hrs on school work to get the GPA i got, too). in the end quant courses are additive often, you need to know A to know Z, so daily prep is mandatory, and it is what makes eng courses seem more daunting because you can’t take a pset off. but if you follow concoll’s position, stay on top of everything, make sure you ask when you need help, it is entirely manageable even for the most difficult of majors.</p>
<p>and as you put it there are tons of stuff you’ve picked up that really just are going to make you better in the long run.</p>
<p>“I would probably not want to work for someone like vossron”</p>
<p>I wouldn’t either; he’s a dinosaur at this point, knowing nothing of what is taught today. Plus, he has old-fashioned attitudes, that students should challenge themselves to get the most out of college.</p>
<p>that’s funny considering students today face more struggles to pay for, get through and find employment after college than your generation.</p>
<p>also i’d be wary in using old-fashioned even jokingly as the word is often code for white male and heternormative. old-fashioned is what glenn beck and others use to portend a world that preexists gender, racial, sexual and ethnic cleavages (as if they didn’t exist back then, ha). not only is it problematic for the most basic reasons (it refuses to believe that the world is complex), but it carries with it a lot of loaded sentiments of prejudice and discrimination. words have dirty histories, especially in the united states, and avoiding them entirely is fantasy. learning to negotiate around usage, understanding their history, and understanding how tone impacts what you say is the most important thing any 18yo can learn because they challenge our mono conception of values and allows us to account for multiplicity. (something i learned in college more outside of the classroom than within, and it is also why being in such a diverse school as columbia means you can’t help but confront questions about cleavages and how what you say means as much as what you do.)</p>
<p>perhaps this will just be a silly tangent to you, but i think you know quite a bit of this already, communication skills and other soft skills are perhaps not what gets you noticed in an application, but it is what often gets you the job and gets you promotions.</p>