Is this a no brainer (ie Columbia) or are schools like Skidmore, Hamilton and Rochester worth choosing over the Ivy’s on cost alone.
Not all things are equal. Columbia will cost around 100k (for all 4 years) whereas Skidmore will likely be free after various scholarships. Hamilton will cost probably 80k for 4 years and Rochester more than that.
Additionally, we probably won’t have to go into debt for any of the schools but free certainly sounds better than 100k if these schools were equal which I don’t believe they are as far as outcome.
I get the impression that Columbia has far higher pay outcomes over time and even immediately after graduation. FWIW - my kid plans to become a doctor and so I am sensitive to the selectivity of the undergraduate school inasmuch as it will open doors to medical school and possibly help pay for medical school (like a MD/PHD program or something else).
I am not that familiar with any of these schools. I would really appreciate hearing perspectives of people from the area or others who can relate to our situation.
She is accepted to all of these schools. Have a month to decide.
At Columbia please check out the grading policies. Especially for the intro Bio class. That class really kills a lot of premed dreams. I think the professor who was teaching that class is retiring. Some students take the bio class at Barnard or over the summer.
The primary driver of med school admissions is GPA and MCAT. The undergrad prestige doesn’t matter that much. It can be a tipping point, especially at the very highly selective med schools. Go wherever she can get the highest GPA and be well prepared for the MCAT. Save money because med school is expensive.
If your child plans to go to med school, you need to go for the cheapest option. The name of the undergrad college is not important for entry to med school. The most important factors are grades, MCAT scores, and relevant experience.
If med school is very likely, she needs to go to the school where she can get and maintain the highest grades. For the money, that sounds like Skidmore, which is a fine school. It is going to be tough for anyone to maintain the highest grades at Columbia or Hamilton, though of course, many kids do.
I suggest ruling out U Rochester. For the price, I don’t think it’s better than any of the other schools. Having said that, it has a ton of medical opportunities because it’s attached to a couple of hospitals. A resourceful student will be able to find internships though, and all these schools will have good career centers to help students.
I would not base decisions on possible medical school. Many high schoolers want to go into medicine but many also change their course, for a variety of reasons. There are also other options in health care, like PA.
Most basic question: does you daughter want NYC or prefer Saratoga Springs (suburban), Rochester (small city) or Clinton NY (rural, with population 1942)?
Columbia is a big university. Does she prefer that? Why is Columbia a “no brainer”? I would consider Hamilton an equal academically, but the location is very very different. What is her preference?
Skidmore is a great school, with an artsy reputation. A free ride is really something to consider.
I don’t see how we can say much that is useful because the schools are so different and it really depends on what your daughter wants!
Yeah, not sure where you got the idea that undergraduate school will “help pay” for medical school. Perhaps, you are thinking of taking a gap year and working a few years after graduation? That is definitely a thing. My general practitioner did that and he loves his work, loves his job and harbors no complaints about paying back his loans. EDIT: NVM.
Since admission to medical school is so dependent on the MCAT exam, I would just choose the undergraduate college with the best fit that you can afford. The schools you’ve listed are sufficiently different from each other that you don’t need our help in deciding which one is best for your child.
MD/PhD programs are an entirely different beast compared to regular MD admissions. The primary difference is that they are scouting for research talent. While getting into an MD-PhD program without research experience is possible, it is very difficult.
So this typically means finding a lab where she can work for several years, gain the trust of the PI, and have a nice letter of recommendation. Plus if she can publish any research that will certainly help. On top of this, she will need to get high GPA, high MCAT and all of the other clinical activities of a standard premed (shadowing, clinical experience, etc).
Columbia’s medical center is about 20-30 mins away from the Morningside campus. So this is an option for world class research. There are also many labs on the undergrad campus. Not sure how the research experience would work at a small college like Skidmore or Hamilton. But check it out. Ask their premed offices if any recent students were accepted into MD-PhD programs.
Columbia to a large extent constitutes a choice to study in an urban environment. If this suits your child, then Columbia could make a great destination for a four-year college experience. As an educational aspect to consider, Columbia offers a laudable set of defined core courses.
However, for a purely undergraduate-focused college experience, your child may have better options. Hamilton, in particular, substantially compares to Columbia by selectivity and student profile, but would be likely to offer a more desirable classroom environment overall:
For perspective regarding costs, this Forbes article includes both Columbia and Hamilton:
If this site’s methods seem reasonable to you, you may want to consider it:
Note that the site evaluates aspects such as the availability of medical school early assurance programs and that Hamilton and Columbia appear. If your child has gotten this far, they are probably already familiar with Hamilton’s notably flexible curriculum, which seems especially well-suited to premed students.
Just a reminder that you can major in anything and still go to medical school. If money is not an issue, your daughter can choose the best undergrad experience, and then apply to one of the excellent post-bacc programs that prepare students for med school and sometimes even give a boost to chances for admission at the school offering the program. Example: Post-Baccalaureate Pre-Medical Certificate Program | Pre-Health Studies | Georgetown University
At the same time I don’t think people factor in the cost of living in a certain location often enough.
When we asked UChicago students what they did for fun, it was all about taking advantage of the city: going to restaurants, concerts, etc. These things cost money. And for us it also meant coming and going by airplane, staying at pricey hotels during visits, etc. All these things add up.
Any of these schools work for med school. Why not visit each and see which is preferred by your student? GPA, MCAT, and oodles of ECs are needed to have a successful med school application. Since money is not a concern, go where your daughter feels she can get all of that and enjoy the journey doing so, because students who are enjoying themselves do better both on paper and mentally.
Have you looked at what successful med school applicants have on their applications? U Rochester publishes their med school profile every year (so you can google other years). It’s a template. They look for the same sorts of things year in and year out and there’s a wide range of undergrad institutions listed. I doubt they’re alone in what they look for. Her goal is to be someone her future med school could write about.
First, decide if the differences in cost are important. If you aren’t made of money – if the extra $80k for Hamilton, $100k for Columbia, and $$$ for Rochester would make you give up other things you would like or need – then you have a perfectly great option at Skidmore.
But if the extra money at the other three would not bring hardship – if you can handle it – then by all means, evaluate them according to academic, environmental, and social fit. Also – don’t forget about housing and food. Having to rent a place in Manhattan is likely quite a lot more expensive than renting one in the other three places. Having the ability to save some coin by staying in a dorm and utilizing the meal plan is a nice option to have.
If undergraduate research is a priority, Hamilton offers this through faculty mentored for-credit courses and summer positions on campus. Hamilton is the only school from this group to receive recognition in US News for its opportunities for research and creative projects.
US News might want to sell more magazines, but research can be done at Columbia, Rochester (which is known for high percentage undergrad research BTW) and likely Skidmore too (I’m just not familiar with that one due to no one from my school that I know of going there - this does NOT mean it’s a bad school. To me, free would put it quite high in consideration).
When kids are interested in going into research - not necessarily pre-med aspirations - it’s not a list of any sort they should be looking at. It’s profs at schools they should delve into to see what research they are doing and see if any look appealing to them. The more profs with intriguing options the better, as one project might be “full” or the prof could move or a gazillion other things.
Otherwise, I’m amazed at how many feel lists are the answer to such things. Lists are advertisements and clickbait most of the time.
One thought - ask the pre-med or pre-health department at Skidmore where recent applicants have been accepted to med school. If you’re happy with what you hear, free is a really nice way to save money for the future.
You can get to a fantastic MD/PHD if you get the right advisor etc in undergrad. I know a kid that did a BS for MIT (a place normally you would be scared about for grades), and had offers from Harvard, Stanford, Rockefeller, UCSF and other stellar places for MD/PHD.
Lists can provide an answer. Few posters, if any, say they provide the answer. In any case, unlike with unsubstantiated opinion, lists provide an explanation of their methods. For example, in the link provided by @apple23 in ancillary support of the information preceding it, it states the following:
Because of the open nature of this information, the OP can then freely access its full context and origin.
A list that extends to only 56 schools in the nation will naturally omit other schools with similar attributes.
And folks think all those presidents, officers, and deans know all the research that is going on in all the 1500 schools in order to rank them. They likely know a few at best. Did they even think to ask fellow researchers in various fields? Those folks would know more.
It’s a lot like asking people to rank state parks. How many have gone to all, or even most, of the state parks to compare?
On a material basis, Hamilton’s expectations for completion of a thesis are high, and are supported by courses such as these in biochemistry:
550 Senior Thesis I.
A research project carried out in association with a faculty member. One course credit. Must be approved by May of the junior year. Maximum enrollment, Standard Course (40). The Program.
551 Senior Thesis II.
A research project carried out in association with a faculty member. Includes written and oral presentations. Candidates for honors should elect both 550 and 551. Prerequisite, 550. One course credit. Maximum enrollment, Standard Course (40). The Program.
Additionally, summer placements in on-campus research represent realistic opportunities for motivated students.
A list provided may simply recognize information that can be verified independently.
I don’t recall ever arguing that Hamilton doesn’t have research. I would have argued otherwise TBH. I know kids who have gone to Hamilton and done well. Same for Columbia and Rochester.
I expect pretty much any college that offers significant research to have something similar to what you posted for “basic” independent options.