<p>Are there any such programs?</p>
<p>[Let</a> me google that for you](<a href=“LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You”>LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You)</p>
<p>Yeah but why would you? I’ve looked at these programs and they seem like a marketing schtick for highschool kids and their parents. I can’t imagine someone who is an academic recommending this path for their kids.</p>
<p>Look at RPI’s requirement…you still need a GPA average that is high enough to qualify you for a lot of great graduate programs anyways!</p>
<p>Moreover, you want to choose your PhD program based on research interests/fit with particular faculty members, and the highest calibre school you can get into: you can’t know this until you are farther along in your first degree. </p>
<p>It can also benefit you to get multiple offers to compare the financial support they give you at different schools. </p>
<p>If you go into the PhD program in your 4th year, you miss all that comparative information above. </p>
<p>The only advantage seems to be you get to go in a year early— but if you have enough AP credits to knock a year off, you can probably do your undergrad degree early anywhere.</p>
<p>Trust me, there is no obvious advantage to rushing here: you <em>need publications</em> and intellectual development, both of which take time, and a PhD without academic maturity and publications is not going to help you. </p>
<p>I think all these downsides far outweigh the upsides here (which is simply not having to take the GRE- big whoop).</p>
<p>I disagree with ^, yes many of his points are valid, but within a school are many diverse research fields with professors that one could go pursue a PhD in Physics with. I was accepted into Drexel’s accelerated BS/PhD program for Chem E and I have spoken with several students who have been in the program and all have said how they were very easily able to do research in areas that interested them. Its all a matter of what you find important and how serious you are ready to get. If you are serious from the start, then youll have the “academic maturity”.</p>
<p>Do you really want to be stuck in the same school for both undergrad and grad? That’s the big question. A lot of people will work full-time while working on a PhD part-time. Say you graduate with your BS and get offered a job paying $50,000 a year in Texas but your school is in Pennsylvania. All your local job offers are for $30,000-$40,000 and not as fun as the Texas one.</p>
<p>Now, if your school is in a place like Austin or Seattle, where there are abundant opportunities for STEM grads to earn a good living, then maybe you’ll be happy staying in the same school for grad. But it’s something to think about. I wouldn’t move across the country for a school just because it had a combined BS/PhD program and the school nearer and cheaper to you did not have such a combined program.</p>
<p>What’s the benefit of such a program anyway? Is it like getting a combined BS/MS, where you take classes that count towards both degrees?</p>
<p>
I don’t think you realize how broad physics can be. The corollary would be like majoring in ‘engineering’, even though there really isn’t any such thing (except for a few schools, but they’re not in the majority). I’m speaking from general knowledge of engineering research, but I’m pretty sure there are nowhere near as many fields and subfields in chemical engineering as there are in physics (which can include theoretical/mathematical, experimental, and computational (which could be some of both)).</p>
<p>I agree with starbright. First of all, you won’t know if you even want to go to graduate school still by the end of your four years. Having never done research, you don’t know if you’ll like it or if you’re cut out for it. Having no knowledge of most fields in physics, you don’t know if it even interests you, and most people don’t realize how mathematically-inclined you have to be to study physics (even experimental). Also, there are lots of people who are very smart and motivated, yet unprepared for graduate level classes, so I’d say academic maturity is something that shouldn’t be taken lightly, especially considering how many people drop out of graduate school in the first place.</p>
<p>There’s also academic inbreeding, which is something that doesn’t look so great on your CV, and there can be many reasons for people to think so. Of course, it’s different if your graduate school is one of the top schools in the country for your chosen field of research, but the general rule of thumb is to avoid going to the same school for graduate as you did for your undergraduate.</p>
<p>^You have a point, Physics is a hell of a lot broader than chem E lol. When it comes down to it though, the OP should see himself exactly what each school that has the program has to offer in terms of academics, research, internships, etc.</p>
<p>And for academic maturity, the OP should speak to students who are in the program. They could provide better insight into how rigorous the program actually is compared to preconceived notions.</p>
<p>People are always going to tout their own pogram though, so the opinions of people in that BS/PhD program are going to be skewed.</p>
<p>BS/PhD programs are a gimmick. Look at how many people drop out of engineering and physics their first two years in undergrad, even te smart ones. Then look at how many make it through but just barely. There is no way to know if you are even cut out for grad school until later in your degree, and that isn’t even taking into account whether you are still interested.</p>
<p>Someone earlier mentioned working full time while doing a PhD part time. That is hog wash. I have NEVER heard of people doing that. Knowing what I do firsthand about PhD programs, I don’t think that would be possible except in VERY specific circumstances. I would seriously question the value of said PhD if I was looking through CVs looking to hire someone.</p>
<p>Academic inbreeding is definitely something to consider, as hadsed pointed out. Except in certain circumstances, it is generally bad to get all your degrees from the same place I you are going for a PhD. If you are only getting a MS then you are fine. For PhD, people like to see you getting perspectives from more than one place, not te same group of professors for 9 consecutive years.</p>
<p>I could swear I’ve heard that you can get a PhD part-time at many schools. Here’s one example I found:</p>
<p>[How</a> to Get an Engineering Degree Without Going to College](<a href=“http://www.engineering.arizona.edu/news/story.php?id=161]How”>http://www.engineering.arizona.edu/news/story.php?id=161)</p>
<p>This sounds like it required the extreme cooperation o industry with academia an grew out of an industry need in mining and geological engineering. I haven’t heard of any other programs of this sort.</p>
<p>There are programs fo getting at least masters degrees in industry over in Europe, but that isn’t a PhD. I find it pretty ridiculous that anyone could earn a PhD in 3 years part-time.</p>
<p>I know several people at my company who are doing part-time electrical engineering PhD’s at Johns Hopkins while working full-time, but they are all taking about 4-6 years after the masters to do so. Ironically, while Hopkins has a part-time research-based (of course) PhD, they lack a part-time research-based masters…</p>
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<p>I was not trying to insult you. I am coming from a very different perspective (as an a resaerch professor for 20 plus years, with having produced countless PhDs and assuming your goal is an academic and not industry one). The thinking required, the research experience and development, the knowing oneself/strengths/limitations to do high quality research does not come quickly, and nor should it. A lost year is a lost year of research on your cv and a lost year of development to do cutting edge high end independent research (this develop continues long after you get your PhD but you ought to be way up there by the time your tenure clock is ticking). Rushing it does a disservice to your long term goals if they are to do academic research. Heck, I encourage my PhD students - all with four year degrees and some with Masters- to take longer to develop before going out onto the job market and start their tenure clock ticking, because they are on such a steep learning curve! It does nothing for your academic career to shave off a year. </p>
<p>Even if you can really understand the academic life, know you have the ability and desire for a PhD, identifying an area of study you are passionate about (and able to work in very successfully) should take you most of your undergraduate years to uncover. And by all means, get as much research experience as you can as an undergrad to help uncover it. But THEN, once you know that specific area, you should apply to THE BEST place you can qualify to get into (with the most top calibre people known in the field to work with in that area). It will make a huge difference to your academic success. </p>
<p>Why would you settle for “I can do X research here”…when you might get into “wow, this is a powerhouse of a place to be doing X research!” Why go to a school that produces PhDs that do not get academic posts over getting to work with a famous someone whose students are always in high demand? Where you go for your PhD usually makes a gigantic difference to your training and job prospects. Of course we can’t all be at Top A school with most famous professor X, but you owe it to yourself to get as high up the ladder as you qualify for (not settle for the convenience of your undergraduate program!). </p>
<p>Scottykid, it’s great you got into the Drexel program, a wonderful place to start. But please take the GRE and do your due diligence to see if Drexel is the best for your PhD when the time comes. You might love X, and Drexel is THE place to study X. Fantastic luck! Or Drexel might be middle road to study X but it’s the best place that would admit you of all the colleges where X is studied. So then go for it. But please, do your independent homework and use them as your back up only!</p>
<p>Haha don’t worry, I didn’t take offense to what you said. And you really have raised some really good points. You were right that I seem more academic than jobseeking, as my true passsion lies with the science itself rather than working for some company. I am not committing myself to Drexel as I am waiting for other schools that are 4 year BS programs. The only reason I am really attracted to Drexel is because of the shortened amount of time it would take to recieve my PhD(and less loans to pay back along with this). Unfortunately I am going to have a lot of debt out of college, but I still want to pursue my research based goal. Drexel’s program would shave off maybe even 2 years as I would be able to start in my Junior Year doing grad work, and ultimately I’d be saving money along with time. But like you said, I shouldnt just jump into it not knowing what all my other options are and that really is a good point that I didn’t consider. Like I said I’m not committing myself to Drexel, but for the money i’d be saving along with my ability to start doing my own real research early on, it is one of my top contenders.</p>
<p>I should also mention that even if I do start in the program, I am not locked into it. I spoke to a few people from the department and they said that you would be able to finish your undergraduate degree without any penalty if you do not wish to pursue the PhD. So even if I do start in the program, I’ll have the option to further pursue it or not, and from what I’ve gathered from alumni, college reviews, and professors, a Drexel engineering BS is a respected degree to start with.</p>
<p>Drexel is a respectable place to get your undegrad, if not stellar. As to the debt, however, you are making a particular mistake - the vast majority of engineering PhD degrees are fully funded. The amount of debt you acrue studying engineering will almost always be limited to the cost of your undergraduate education, during your graduate years your tuition will be paid and you will receive a living stipend in exchange for teaching duties (TA), helping with other people’s research (RA), or just for being such a good student (fellowship). The only people paying for PhD’s are those handful who choose to pay at a “higher” school rather than take a free ride at a “lesser” one - a personal and usually unwuse choice.</p>
<p>And again, like starbright noted, even at the undergrad level there is little virtue in graduating early even from your undergrad. It is a competitive market in industry AND in academia, and it is far better to get a thorough education than a quick one.</p>
<p>
I think he’s talking about how he’ll be shaving off undergraduate debt specifically. If you start graduate funding in your 3rd year, that’s only 2 years he’d have to be paying for undergrad expenses (rather than 4).</p>
<p>I am not intimately familiar with Drexel’s program, but I would be very surprised if that was the case. Their minimum GPA of 3.35 doesn’t seem to merit a full fellowship, and I think it unlikely that a junior (or even senior) is going to be ready for the level of research or teaching that a grad student normally performs in return for a waiver and stipend.</p>
<p>OP: I would certainly find an answer for this particular question - if they ARE waiving your tuition early, then that is a significant advantage, especially if you are not incurring any actual commitment to remain.</p>
<p>Yes that is the case, because since I will be taking grad courses and doing grad work starting junior year, I will be paying the undergraduate rate (since I am doing my BS at same time) but I will be eligible for grad level scholarships and fellowships.</p>
<p>Eligible for or competitive for? My alma mater had a nominally 5-year integrated BS/MS option for honors students, and they became “grad-funding” eligible starting their senior year… but I never heard any of them getting more than a few hundred here or there. The problem is that, compared to undergrad, there are far fewer “small” grad funding opportunities and far more “large/total” opportunities. All of those larger funding opportunities come with requirements that a junior would (under normal circumstances) be very hard-pressed to fill.</p>
<p>I would ask the program director what percentage of juniors and seniors in the program are receiving graduate funding covering 100% of tuition. Being eligible is not a help if not is actually getting it when competing with 2nd year grad students with 2-4 more years of education and experience.</p>
<p>Scottykid… I checked with the program in question, and they indicated that graduate funding typically comes at the END of the undergraduate coursework, typically 4-5 years. It sounds like there is perhaps a little extra undergrad funding that could come your way, but you will mostly be funded like other undergrad and grad students - 4-5 years of merit scholarships followed by 3-6 years of RA/TA/fellowship…</p>