<p>I'm a little surprised, innervissions, that Princeton didn't make the cut. Which of the three criteria didn't it meet? I assume that it's the research opportunities, but as an upcoming senior looking to apply to many of these schools, I would like to know your exact reason for Princeton's placement.</p>
<p>Bored Pirate...You can't bump a school up just because of one amazing program it has. If you look at it overall, Chicago is a better undergraduate institute</p>
<p>"I'm a little surprised, innervissions, that Princeton didn't make the cut. Which of the three criteria didn't it meet? I assume that it's the research opportunities, but as an upcoming senior looking to apply to many of these schools, I would like to know your exact reason for Princeton's placement."</p>
<p>The Tier I schools are, for all intensive purposes, equal academically. The a and b distinctions are some insight into the kind of school it is. Harvard and Yale both have incredible departments in the arts, and are deeply involved in the community. Their urban environments have an abundance of activity. Both campuses are incredibly lively, and although the academics are incredible, the real attraction to the school is the student body. Stanford is a little different, and is not so strongly in this category, but boasts warm weather, sports, and students that are known to be generally well-rounded and interesting.</p>
<p>The next four are probably a touch better with academics, but a little more one-dimensional. The people are less of a concern, passing times are quiet, etc. After visiting twice and speaking to two recent graduates and one current student, I'm inclined to give Princeton this kind of label.</p>
<p>Unregistered, Dartmouth would likely beat all the LACs in PA, as its research driven efforts are stronger than almost all of them (psychology, business, computer science, etc). Its endowment per student of 700K vs. 800-1M at the top LACs isn't significant enough to effect its other ratings. Look at columbia, Penn, and cornell (all have endowments 1/3 to 1/2 the size of Dartmouth) and yet they can compete head on in spite of this. Selectivity-wise the top couple lacs and Dartmouth are about the same.</p>
<p>I can't believe I am sitting here reading this when I should be doing laundry...</p>
<p>I don't know if the PA score would be higher than Amherst and Williams - they're judged as LACs, not as research institutions, and Dartmouth doesn't do a better job of educating undergraduates than Amherst or Williams (I doubt most people giving PAs at LACs could care less how great Dartmouth's business program is, really.) I think a 300k difference in per student endowment is fairly significant, and I don't think Dartmouth would be near the top for alumni giving. I doubt it would be ranked at the very top LAC, but I don't know how it would score on its PA. All this guessing about rankings makes my head spin.</p>
<p>PA is all about research and reputation, not instruction. Dartmouth exceeds the top LACS in these areas. And Dartmouth is actually right there with AW when it comes to alumni giving. Its advantage is PA.</p>
<p>I thought it was just a bit behind Williams and Amherst for alumni giving, but I can't imagine most people giving its business program much weight in the PA (Amherst students can't even receive credit for business courses, because of snobbery about it not being a "liberal arts" pursuit). I don't think Dartmouth exceeds Williams or Amherst in reputation amongst the people who would be surveyed concerning LACs. Maybe you're correct, but I really just can't see it at all.</p>
<p>And I don't understand why I get sucked into arguing about these things, either, but I embarrass myself...</p>
<p>What, no love for Cornell?</p>
<p>slipper - Dartmouth's PA wouldn't be any higher than Wesleyan's. Remember it would be graded by other LACs only and -- fairly or not -- <em>anything</em> smacking of graduate degrees and TAs would earn demerits from your fellow LACs. Wesleyan's science departments are at least "a head above" if not both shoulders above Amherst's and Williams.</p>
<p>Meadesport - yeah, just comparing Penn's CAS with Wesleyan, I see nothing special about Penn. They didn't even have a Film major until three years ago. And, the proximity of students to faculty doing peer-reviewed research is about the same.</p>
<p>Why are we debating over someone's "researched perception"?</p>
<p>Oh, and to OP: there's a reason LACs and universities are ranked separately--they're fundamentally different. "Comparing apples to oranges...."</p>
<p>I don't what the formula you're all using to neglect West Point and the Naval Academy. Though the service academies are often criminally overlooked in these rankings, they've finally been recognized in the U.S. News Rankings as LAC's. In fact, the Naval Academy and West Point are ranked as the two best public LAC's in the nation. Couple that fact with their selectivity, scores, admission standards (congressional nomination needed) and other criteria, I think they are hard to leave out of the top 20 or 30 in the land. What do you think?</p>
<p>
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yeah, just comparing Penn's CAS with Wesleyan, I see nothing special about Penn. They didn't even have a Film major until three years ago.
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</p>
<p>Ummm...what? What about the broader international backgrounds, the higher-scoring students, and the fact that Penn CAS doesn't exist in some hypothetical bubble but is integrated with such amazing schools as Wharton, Penn Law, Annenberg, etc?</p>
<p>I mean since when is a school's swell-ness determined by whether it has a film major?</p>
<p>Who throws a shoe, honestly??</p>
<p>I'd agree with GoNavy. West Point and Naval Academy are phenomenal institutions and worthy of far more reverence than they currently receive</p>
<p>ilovebagels asked:</p>
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<p>What about the broader international backgrounds, the higher-scoring students, and the fact that Penn CAS doesn't exist in some hypothetical bubble but is integrated with such amazing schools as Wharton, Penn Law, Annenberg, etc?<</p>
<br>
<p>That just proves my point. Penn's CAS plays second, third and fourth fiddle to each of the competing schools you mention. Penn is the only Ivy where people think of the business school before they think of it's English, Poli-Sci, History, Biology or Music Departments (let alone its Film Studies Dept) when its name comes up in conversation. </p>
<p>Maybe CAS students benefit from this association, or confusion, I couldn't say.</p>
<p>uh, for undergrad, if you have caltech and mit there, then why not harvey mudd?</p>
<p>
That may be your perception, but it's completely erroneous. CAS is the oldest and--by far--the largest of all of Penn's undergrad and grad schools (larger than all 3 of the other undergrad schools put together), and is figuratively and literally at the center of the university. EVERY undergrad at Penn takes courses in CAS, which is not true of the other 3 schools, and CAS offers over 2.000 courses and more than 50 majors. Moreover, the reality "on the ground" for the 6400 CAS undergrads is that they play second, third, or fourth fiddle to NONE of the other schools on campus.</p>
<p>Also, in terms of reputation and what "people think," it so happens that of the 4 liberal arts departments you mentioned, Penn is generally ranked in the top 10 in the country in English and Music (along with its liberal arts departments of Sociology, Economics, Linguistics, Art History, French, Religion, Spanish and Anthropology), in the top 15 in History (along with its liberal arts departments of Classics and Comparative Literature), and in the top 20 in Biology (along with its liberal arts departments of German and Physics). So, although Penn detractors are fond of charaterizing the liberal arts as the poor stepchildren at Penn, nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone who really knows about Penn--or knows anything about the relative reputations of liberal arts departments--is aware that Penn and CAS are preeminent in liberal arts. They also are aware that under Penn's longstanding and vaunted "One University" policy, the presence of preeminent schools of business, law, and communications--not to mention nursing, medicine, design, etc.--serves to significantly ENHANCE the undergraduate liberal arts experience at Penn, and not detract from it (i.e., Penn liberal arts undergrads are allowed to take courses in the other 3 undergrad schools and most of the grad/professional schools without the need for any special dispensation, providing a program of unparalleled diversity, breadth, and depth that goes far beyond the traditional liberal arts curriculum).</p>
<p>In short, your view of Penn and CAS is a bit jaundiced and, more importantly, highly inaccurate.</p>