<p>weenie, My D liked the sound of U of Rochester because it was a little larger than the others on our list, and we also heard that you can take a 5th year free. Plus, as you mentioned, Eastman is top-notch in music. Do you know if you can still get the personal attention (at the main campus) that the smaller LAC's offer? I assume U of R would be less preppy, too. Are my assumptions correct? Regarding the city of Rochester and traveling back and forth to Eastman, do you consider it safe?</p>
<p>Coyote, I visited Rochester this summer with son#2...we thought the campus was quite nice. The campus was very traditional looking- lots of beautiful brick. I don't know the distance to Eastman, but there is regular shuttle service. The student population is bright and focused- pre med seems to be the big thing. I would not describe any of the kids we met as preppy, perse. I think the size of the school allows for plenty of personal attention- The one thing we didn't like was the dorm we saw- It seemed too big for a college of this size, and in not very good condition. There is a frat scene as well. I think it is a good "admissions value" in that the quality of the school is not reflected in the relatively high % of kids admitted.</p>
<p>Also, if you didn't know already, you should apply if you have any possible reasons for attending since the fee waiver for the common app is waived if you apply online i believe :) And you can start visiting it before or after, and finding out more info</p>
<p>Regarding music opportunities for non-music majors at Lawrence: my oldest son is a freshman in the 5 yr. B.Mus./B.A. program. He plays piano but sings in two choirs. There is another young man from his high school who is a math major, who is also in a choir and joining the orchestra. I just returned from a weekend in Appleton, we went to a choir concert Friday night then the Orchestra concert last night. Both were very good, and extremely well-attended and received by the student population. We had the impression that these were big events on campus. The posters we saw on kiosks gave us the impression that the parties started after the concerts. </p>
<p>The Lawrence Conservatory literature states that the students compete with themselves, not one another. It seems like a very inviting atmosphere for the non-music majors to continue their pursuit of music activities. </p>
<p>Regarding the alcohol issue: There is a substance free dorm option. All res. halls are smoke free. My son says you can find anything, anywhere if you're looking for it; however, they have this honor/behavior code which encourages them to respect students rights to quiet hours. He feels he got lucky in his dorm placement and has been very pleased with the atmosphere. A couple times he's attended parties at the substance-free dorm that feature live jazz groups.
Apparently the jazz scene is very much alive for a school this size.</p>
<p>The admissions department was fabulous. They continued to help us with questions right up to the day my son arrived. You should feel very comfortable emailing or calling them with specific questions.
Good luck in your search!</p>
<p>Coyotemom - Don't get me wrong - Whitman is a wonderful school. If my daughter had the stats for it, it would be number one on her list. I have talked with many Whitman parents and a few Whitman students and they are all uniformly pleased with the environment and academics there --- my point was simply that a turn off for one person may not be for another.</p>
<p>A key, I think, it to look at what is available on campus beyond "parties" A school like Whitman where there constantly seems to be things going on such as theater, outdoor activities, lectures, etc. gives non-partiers opportunities to do other things. </p>
<p>At least, that's what my daughter is hoping!</p>
<p>Teal -- thanks for the reminder about the free online application for UR!</p>
<p>Pianomom - Glad to hear from someone whose son attends Lawrence. It sounds like the music opportunities are great. And thanks for your comments about the social scene. What are your son's impressions of the non- music classes and faculty? </p>
<p>Carolyn - I understand your point. And I also agree that Whitman is a fabulous school. Every student we met at Whitman loved being there. We thought the facilities were fabulous and my D enjoyed the meeting with the professors in music as well as sitting in on some of the core classes. And we were quite impressed with the number of activies, lectures, music and theater going on at such a small school. Whitman would be a reach for my D, too -- so we are trying to be realistic. </p>
<p>You sound like you've done a lot of college research and visits. Do you find that the Fiske and Princeton books are accurate? Sometimes I find discrepancies between the two books or what I've read on this forum. For Example, most folks have described U of R as a top-notch academic school, but Princeton gave it an 87 academic rating, considerably lower the U Puget Sound's 97. [ From the comments on this board, I would have guessed UR would have rated higher than UPS.] Just curious what your thoughts are about these "guides." Also, do you mind sharing some of your daughter's top college choices?</p>
<p>Coyoteweb, I'm NOT BASHING PR, but its ratings are based primarily on student interviews/reviews, so they have to taken in that context. Anything about "atmosphere" or character of the student body is dead on. But if you read several reviews back to back, you will begin to notice that regardless of the average SAT or the selectivity of the institution or the salary of the faculty the academics are described as "hard, we work a ton" and the faculty as "wonderful". There are some exceptions, of course, but comparing schools one to one in PR is a little difficult to do objectively.</p>
<p>I agree with Cangel. The PR book was useful for getting a "feel" for each school, but the academic comparisons tend toward the ludicrous. I find that the raw data presented by USNWR (though not the ranking system) was more useful for getting an idea of the academic level of a school.</p>
<p>coyotemom:
I have never really been a student at U of R (other than a few graduate courses I took there a million years ago), so I can't really comment on some of the questions you've asked. The campus is in a fairly urban area. Safety is a big priority on campus (I know that from hanging around Eastman), but kids have to be smart just like they do at all urban colleges...Although I noticed in the papers today 2 girls attacked in seperate incidents at Hobart/William Smith College which is not in an urban area at all! My own son is looking at Case Western, which in a lot of ways reminds me of U of R with the presence of the medical school and its location. There is a U of R shuttle that I believe the kids take to Eastman. I suspect a lot of kids have cars too, although parking at Eastman is a bit of a challenge, I think the kids go down together. The part of town that Eastman is in has a thriving "club scene" that attracts a lot of students and 20 somethings. Not just drinking - but lots of music stuff. The other part of town popular with college kids is the Park Ave neighborhood (lots of college kids' apartments). But again, I suspect most of those kids drive back and forth to U of R or RIT. Transportation to Arizona is via either our airport or Buffalo's (often much cheaper). My in-laws live in Tempe, so we've done the trip a few times. Sometimes it's cheap, sometimes it isn't! Rochester is not what I would consider preppy AT ALL. I think the students are probably a mix of geography - but anyplace around here includes a hefty dose of New York City/ Long Island and Eastman is over half Asian.</p>
<p>coyotemom:
In re-reading my last post I may have given the impression that the music scene is all in the clubs. Most of it is at Eastman, which has a large theater (where the Roch Philharmonic plays) and a smaller theater (Kilbourn Hall) where most performances are free to students.</p>
<p>Coyotemom, I personally don't like the Princeton Review either - I prefer the Fiske Guide. It seems to offer a more balanced review of schools whereas the Princeton Review tends to be very negative. The best way to really assess schools, in my opinion, is to go right to the source - student newspapers, livejournal interest sites for various schools, info. from people who either go there or have visited. The reviews at <a href="http://www.eopinion.com%5B/url%5D">www.eopinion.com</a> can also be helpful (although some are getting out of date), as can looking at <a href="http://www.studentsreview.com%5B/url%5D">www.studentsreview.com</a> reviews. </p>
<p>In terms of academic programs, the best source I have found is a book called Rugg's Recommendations of the Colleges. It doesn't review schools, it just lists schools that have particularly strong programs in various majors. The nice thing is that the lists are broken down by selectivity so you can find schools strong in a particular major but aren't impossible to get into.</p>
<p>Coyotemom - Just realized you were interested in my daughter's top college choices.
First, a bit about her: she's a junior interested in smaller liberal arts schools. She is turned off by preppy (as we discovered while visiting schools back east last summer). She's interested in majoring in history but also likes art so wants a school that offers art opportunities. She doesn't want a big school - prefers liberal arts schools. Study abroad options are very important to her. She also wants at least some diversity on campus. I'd describe her as "quirky" - she's a conservative socially but enjoys being around liberal-leaning students. She has ruled out the UC's and the cal states. Based on her 10th grade PSATs, I'm guessing her SATs next spring will fall into the mid-1200's for math and verbal, with writing on the new SATs, probably in the mid-1900's or so. Her GPA is hovering at around 3.4/3.5 unweighted. If there's some miracle this year, it may get up to around 3.6 but I'm not counting on it. She'll have taken some APs and lots of honors classes but will be weak in science (probably will only have 2-1/2 years) because she has tried to fit as much art as possible into her schedule. She has so-so extracurriculars, mainly revolving around art. She does not want to take the SAT II's.</p>
<p>Anyhow, some of the schools we've looked at include: Goucher College in Maryland (we've visited and this is her absolute favorite school, a perfect fit for her in many ways), Earlham in Indiana, Beloit and Lawrence in Wisc. (I love Lawrence but our last name is Lawrence and that's a turn off for her), Knox in Illinois, St. Olaf in Minnesota, the University of Redlands in Calif., Willamette in Oregon, St. Mary's College of California, and Southwestern U in Texas. These schools are all still on her list at the moment and we will be visiting many of them over the next few months. She loves Whitman but her guidance counselor (her school has sent 1-2 students there each year for the past 5 years) says it would be a huge reach for her unless she applied ED so I don't know that we'll even visit. </p>
<p>Other schools she's looked at but ruled out for various reasons include Dickinson College (PA), Washington College (MD), Franklin & Marshall (PA), Trinity University (Texas), Loyola Marymount (CA), the College of Wooster (Ohio), Wheaton College (Mass), and Skidmore (NY). All of these are great schools, worth a look.</p>
<p>Thx for comments on PR. And your thoughts about UR were helpful, Weenie.</p>
<p>Carolyn - You mentioned that your daughter would have chosen Whitman if she had the stats for it -- She doesn't find it preppy? I think my daughter has a similar feeling about schools as yours, and I really couldn't put my pulse on the "prep factor" at Whitman. The students seemed very engaging. I found diversity lacking there, but didn't really expect much since we were out in the middle of nowhere. My D attended a wonderful program at Oxford last summer (Oxbridge Program) and absolutley loved the stimulating campus and town, the libraries and museums, but she was very uncomfortable with the "preppy rich kids." She was one of the very few from public school. She eventually found her place, but came away feeling that she wanted more diversity. I'm checking out your list -- and will look up your links including livejournal. Thanks!</p>
<p>Looking for diversity - definitely consider Occidental.</p>
<p>Coyoteweb:
"What are your son's impressions of the non- music classes and faculty?"</p>
<p>All freshman regardless of major take the two term Freshman Studies course in addition to two other classes which totals 18 units. Choir/Orchestra/Jazz Band equal 1 unit each and can easily fit in that schedule. My son has three 6 unit classes plus two choirs to equal 20 units which seems pretty reasonable. I mention the number of classes because we were not at all familiar with the Three Term schedule. </p>
<p>Regarding the classes and professors: He has found the professors to be extremely good teachers and very accesible. They are truly in the business of teaching and take this charge very seriously. In Freshman studies the professors are from all areas of the campus. The whole freshman class comes together about eight time a term for a large group lecture on each of the works studied. This includes works of literature, art, music and theater. (They website has audio copies of previous lectures and the reading list.) </p>
<p>The main focus of the coursework is learning how to read critically and to write. ( Whenever we spoke to alumni of Lawrence, the first statement was always, "You will learn how to write well.") As a prospective English major, this was a draw for my son. He has sent us some of his papers and we have been very impressed with the amount of time the professor has taken to help him understand the works and to clarify his writing. </p>
<p>Students are encourage to get to know the professors outside of the classroom and to share meals together. Professors eat in the dining hall for free if they are with a student. It is not unusual for a class of 13-15 to head to the cafeteria together with the prof. </p>
<p>As far as the admissions requirements, it looks as though your daughter would fit in well. My son had similar stats as your daughter with a little higher test scores. He's a good tester but not a straight A student. The merit and need based aid is very generous. </p>
<p>My son, was very much influenced by the friendly, relaxed yet studious atmosphere, the specific professors that he met, and the good jazz and classical groups. </p>
<p>My husband and I were influenced by the follwing quotes from Loren Pope's book: "Colleges that Change Lives"</p>
<p>"If an omniscient being were to describe the qualitative difference between Lawrence University in Appleton, Wisconsin, and one of the Ivies in New England, she or he would say that Lawrence is a growth hormone that raises kids' trajectories and instills the power to soar. The Ivies take in fast-track kids and turn out fast-track graduates not much changed."</p>
<p>"If people weren't provincial and if they were concerned only with quality, Lawrence would be considered as selective as any school. But until things change, there is no greater educational bargain in the country."
"The educational establishment, however, is in on the secret. Three of its [Lawrence University] presidents have subsequently headed Harvard, Brown, and Duke."</p>
<p>"Lawrence's faculty, the equal of any with its credentials, has few peers as mentors and friends who motivate young people and equip them to cope in a new kind of world. Lawrence has had seven Rhodes Scholars and it ranks in the top 20 colleges in turning out future Ph.D.s in the humanities and in all other non-science fields. It is a first-rate entree into graduate and professional schools."</p>
<p>"Lawrence is called a university because it has a music conservatory, a superb one that is most unusual. It not only has music for the non-music majors, but the music majors are ensured a liberal education. A number of non-music majors used terms like "phenomenal" or "incredible" to describe the conservatory and the performances it brings to the campus."
"Lawrence is a place that helps young people find themselves and then make the best of what they find."</p>
<p>while we didn't get much out of the huge college fair at the convention center, we did out of the Colleges that change lives" tour.
much smaller, and I had impression reps were actually from the schools rather than local. Really enthusastic about their schools. Mr Pope was a hoot too, reminded me of Orville Redenbacher.</p>
<p>Coyotemom, The kids that have gone to Whitman from my daughter's school that she personally has known haven't struck her as preppy - several were very involved with theater, others were involved with liberal political causes or were outdoorsy types.</p>
<p>I guess I should specify how my daughter defines "preppy" however - she doesn't care a fig about family wealth but she is very sensitive to the way students dress, how they talk, what their interests are. One of the funniest moments on our tour of east coast colleges last year happened at a very good liberal arts school --- the tour guide appeared wearing a frilly little skirt and pearls. She was also carrying a little designer pocketbook.</p>
<p>When daughter asked about the art program at the school, the tour guide said "Well, we have a definite arty crowd and I'm in it." At which point my daughter pulled me aside and said "If SHE'S in the artsy crowd, this isn't the place for me!" </p>
<p>Ever since, she has what she calls the "skirts and pocketbook" rule - too many girls with "girly" skirts and pocketbooks on the way to class and she rules the school out. On the other hand, if she saw too many kids with mohawks and piercings, she'd also probably be turned off. She's looking for something in the middle with people who "look like her."</p>
<p>She'd enjoy Smith - they've got ALL kinds (some that haven't even been defined yet), and the most fun part is that you can't really tell much by the looks!</p>
<p>(maybe we visited the same east coast liberal arts college - my d. and I decided to count piercings, tattoos, mohawks, and dreads, but never got past a half dozen, though the girl giving the "environmental tour" had a very tasteful nosejewel to go with her very handsome dress (I wouldn't know designers from here to tomorrow, but I think the dress represented one.) My d. has none of the above - piercings, tattoos, mohawks, dreads, nosejewels, or designer dresses - but definitely wanted to be at a school where they would be a bunch of each.)</p>
<p>well one of my daughters best friends brought pantyhose to Reed and when she did a workstudy program in rural Vermont she brought heels just cause she couldnt stand not to. I suppose she might be considered preppy?
I understand not wanting to attend a school where frats are real big, if you are a goth type kid, but for the most part I would agree that diversity is one of the things its nice to have at college.</p>
<p>Mini, actually my daughter's AP Euro teacher from last year - who went to Smith herself and also sent one of her daughters there - has been actively trying to get my daughter to at least consider Smith for some time now. Although it would be a huge reach for her, her teacher is right: Smith would be the right kind of school for her...if only they had some male chromosones there.</p>