Competing academically against kids who have private tutors

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<p>It’s not a bad idea, IF it works for your family dynamic. In our case, once our kids were out of elementary school, it generally drove everyone bananas. </p>

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<p>This. D1 chose to transfer from a locally-well-regarded public high school to an academically tippy-top public magnet because it would stretch her academically. She knew it might not give her the best shot to elite colleges, and she was fine with that. D2 is not the kind of student who will be gunning for super-elite or even elite schools. For our family, options 1-3 are/were nonstarters.</p>

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<p>And I’m not sure where you got the idea that anyone is saying that.</p>

<p>What I’m saying, and you can read one my earlier posts if you haven’t yet, is that ‘parental academic support’ is often (a) insufficient and/or (b) unrealistic. (Doesn’t work.) Very often, parents approach tutoring centers when they have exhausted their own efforts to tutor, and/or even basic, general parental oversight is being resisted by the student. This tends to be especially true in the high school years, but I’ve seen it start as early as Grade 3. And I’ve seen it in many cultures, including many immigrants from East Asia, South Asia, the Philippines, and more.</p>

<p>Miami…Parental academic is not a bad thing but once it crosses the line to hours of worksheets at home every night than the balance is gone. As I said in another thread last week this is very common when things swing too much to either sports or academics. Learning should be a joy and once it becomes a job children lose their creativity. There are some very obediant children who would not go against their parents wishes when academics are enforced for many hours in the evenings but these children often do not look happy and rarely have the ability to write a paper that is not factually based. There are problems with both extremes.</p>

<p>Regarding post #176, Amen to #4!!!</p>

<p>In my house, that was they key. We did what we thought was best for each child and let it all go. We were sane, happy, and we enjoyed the entire high school experience.</p>

<p>I will re-state that one thing I don’t like about parent-paid advanced high-calibre hand-holding, tutoring of high-achieving HS students is: money makes a big difference. It just doesn’t seem right to the extent this has gone.</p>

<p>I don’t have a citation at hand, but I think it has been fully documented that parental socio-economics play a big role in SAT scores. Then the ability to pay for costly, extensive tutoring as an advantage that can raise scores “by 200 points,” according to some commercial sales claims. Around here, parents often demand their kids retake the SAT a lot to get as close as possible to perfect. Even if YOU don’t do that, your kids are affected since many of their peers act like it IS necessary. </p>

<p>Then, the ability to manage or force your child to follow a carefully prescribed route is one way to material rewards/college offers. It saddens me, doesn’t seem like the American Way of individuality and creativity.</p>

<p>This doesn’t sound like a level playing field for top college admissions based on merit to me.
Some say there have always been some quirks. I didn’t know about Columbia, but I am respectful of that story; here is another one where the wrong thing is being done, almost on a very large level.</p>

<p>2nd, I just am uncomfortable with the ethics of prepping teens ahead of a specific curriculum before taking it for a grade. We didn’t do it, and I do admit I resent those who did (a very large # in our high achieving district in Silicon Valley). Such students, who sometimes don’t do their own work, may receive better grades though they didn’t really earn them themselves. Some are secretive, some boast in front of the non-hand-held kids.</p>

<p>The open, constant bragging of SAT scores, etc. is vulgar IMO.</p>

<p>Some posted their kid got great SAT scores or whatever without fancy paid tutoring, etc., and I realize there ARE, of course, some real go-getter, self-motivated and academically superstar kids out there. I’m delighted and I want them in our American universities and I want them to work in our economy! </p>

<p>However, at the same time, there are a super-duper number of fully average kids from high socio-economic in my local area who get some super uni offers that are largely based on PARENTAL actions and money. Some of these kids have stepped in front of high achievers who were not packaged to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars by parents and paid college app prepping consultancies. The admissions system should be better protected against artificial measures of achievement, grades, “success.” THis is why I suggested a verbal. I have done this myself - in terms of having a casual conversation with local teens (all of whom are capable of such a conversation and have high self esteem) – and I have indeed noted some were forced to take (and get As) in APs they had no interest in – indeed, were dismissive – or they were not retaining any knowledge at all.</p>

<p>I’m at the point where I truly believe the top unis should start giving great credibility to the kid who goes the non-prestifious route in HS as opposed to fancy parent-arranged ECs – who holds down a solid, basic job during HS yrs (no, not at the small hi-tech company owned by your mommy – as a kid at our local HS told me some yrs back…</p>

<p>You can’t prevent people from using their connections, but YOUTH and EDUCATION should have some naturalness in learning, enjoyment of learning for learning’s sake, and self-otivation. There should be some accountavility and transparency in what’s going on, bc some of the middle-high-achievers who are honest, are getting shafted in the current process.</p>

<p>FAP, very interesting article.</p>

<p>lateparty You seem to believe that most kids attending top or elite schools or whatever anyone wants to call them has come from privilage with every paid for opportunity to succeed. That is simply not true. I have three kids, one who has graduated and two others that will graduate next year and other than two months of tutoring for a math class they did not have in middle school they have never been tutored for anything. They also never had expensive trips abroad to “study” or do community service. My kids did it the old fashioned way with hard work and alot of drive. We were very lucky with my first three. My daughter who is the youngest has never really put that kind of effort in her future but it does not mean that she will not be a functioning part of society or that she won’t be happy. Every kid is different, even kids raised in the same family turn out differenty, and the school they attend does not mean their future is dismal or wonderful. I try not to get caught up in the frenzy because there are things that seem unfair. All you could do is your best with what you have, and even than that does not mean the outcome is what you wished for.</p>

<p>I don’t think people who are not around it, don’t really understand what’s going on. What I am concerned about is not tutoring for help with a subject a child struggles with, nor is it tutoring to help a child get ahead in a particular subject of interest. This is tutoring for every single class, every single week (or several times a week) in addition to ECs. The ONLY purpose is to raise grades as high as possible to pad the application as much as possible for elite colleges.</p>

<p>These kids have no life and no purpose in life besides getting into a “good” college as defined by their parents.</p>

<p>Random thoughts. </p>

<p>1) Cookie-cutter kids don’t do well at all in elite college admissions. Package them all you want, but most times the ordinariness will show through anyway. </p>

<p>2) This pre-gaming of HS courses really seems silly to me. Do the students really need that to be competitive? In a high-school course? huh. If so, I have a feeling they aren’t going to be that impressive. More impressive than they would have been? Maybe so. Even probably. But most of this thread is about elite college admissions and while some pre-gamers may slip by…it’s a pretty tight net. </p>

<p>3) Why would anyone want to go to a school where they will struggle or have to scheme to take the less than challenging classes? As my loving D put it after throwing CalTech on the discard heap (she was considering some weekend pre-application partially sponsored visit as I re-call), “Dad. I’d be the dumb blonde. That would NOT be cool.” lol (as that was her hair color of the month). </p>

<p>4) We weren’t naive. Thanks to CC our eyes were wide-open from soph year on. (Before that? Babe in the woods.) We knew we didn’t have the $ or resources or help from the GC so we did it ourselves. One example (at a cost of half a day and 15 gallons of gasoline) : When one of the elite high schools in Dallas was hosting a college rep from a school D was interested in, she called the high school to see if she could meet with her there. “No. But thanks for asking.” (Why would they agree? Fairness to the middle class rural kid? Yeah, right. ;)) So…she emailed the rep directly and met her in a wonderful hour long chat over coffee. Gee. You mean we didn’t have to have a fancy connected high school counselor? Who knew? :wink: (Edit: I just remembered, another elite high school’s kids WERE welcome to meet at hoity-toity school. Reciprocity among the elite?))</p>

<p>4) IMO, this tutoring phenomenon would be best suited for moving a kid from a no-chance candidate at elite schools to a marginal candidate. And it won’t make the mid-pack top student kid into a WOW (walk on water), no matter how much money you throw at it. </p>

<p>Take-away message : For my D, she wanted a shot at playing the game. We learned the rules, knew the odds, and lined her up against the big dogs. It was all her choice. Her motivation. She did it from there. And it has worked out fine for her.</p>

<p>If you don’t have the $ or the built-in resources of an elite high school (which usually costs even more money), you gotta get educated on the process. Get creative. Get pro-active . Or I guess you can sit on your bum and groan about the un-fairness. Your call.</p>

<p>“THis is why I suggested a verbal. I have done this myself - in terms of having a casual conversation with local teens (all of whom are capable of such a conversation and have high self esteem) – and I have indeed noted some were forced to take (and get As) in APs they had no interest in – indeed, were dismissive – or they were not retaining any knowledge at all.”</p>

<p>And as someone who has studied the history of US higher ed and talked with my public magnet high school administration and admissions officers at elite/Ivy colleges, emphasizing interviews/oral chats can be gamed much more easily by those with wealthy parents who have charismatic traits or can pay someone to tutor their kids in those traits and skills. </p>

<p>It also advantages the kid whose parents are wealthy enough to allow him/her to join many sports, ECs, and not have to work a part-time job to contribute to the family finances. Not everyone has the money or time to join a tennis club or join ECs. </p>

<p>Lastly, do we really want to fill our elite colleges/universities with well-off extroverts who are good at face-face interviews/conversations, but who may not have the work ethic and/or intellectual capabilities to excel or even perform passably once they enter those institutions because they falsely believed that the amount of work and effort expended in high school is enough?</p>

<p>we hired a tutor for DD on two occasions. When she was crashing in chemistry, we got her a chem tutor to help her focus on what she needed to know for a test (and yeah, the teacher was not very good, and yelled at the kids, and sensitive DD was reacting very badly). One session. Which we bought at a band fundraiser. And for English, when she had a teacher who was very rigid about the essay/assignment structure, and DD was having trouble planning stuff out - really she needed an ADHD coach more than a tutor, but all the recommended ADHD coaches were booked solid, and a good English tutor was available.</p>

<p>And yes, the benefits of having $$ are, IMHO unfair. I do not begrudge people their choices. As should be clear from the above, I will do what I think I have to do for MY child. As long as we don’t pretend that the results in the distribution of accomplishment in our society are a pure meritocracy.</p>

<p>" Why would anyone want to go to a school where they will struggle or have to scheme to take the less than challenging classes? "</p>

<p>Twice exceptional. Gifted AND learning disable, Gifted AND ADHD (very common combinations)</p>

<p>Can’t fit in at a regular program. A swan among ducklings. Bored with regular offerings. Loves the community, loves the intellectual discussions, loves most of the class work. Can’t manage all the homework. </p>

<p>Most school systems don’t have a place for such kids. A few private schools do, but thats a lot of $$. Some folks homeschool such kids for this reason.</p>

<p>Edit: I thought you were talking about High schools. University is a different topic. I will leave my post up anyway, I think its worth saying, even if not a direct response to yours.</p>

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That’s one place where some folks mis-interpret the process of elite admissions. In my estimation, the commonly discussed elite schools (non-tech) want both social skills and the academic chops…and usually get them. </p>

<p>It’s not an either/or proposition. They don’t accept many academic middling performers. They don’t want test-taking dolts and dullards who just stay in their dorm room and study, either. They want active participants in the life of the college in all its facets. So, yeah. EC’s count a lot at elite schools. </p>

<p>Look. It’s not that bad. “All academics, all the time” kids have schools that lust after them, but they are just not the same schools. If your kid is more suited to one than the other, recognize it and move on. Life’s too short. Same goes for the kid who “needs” a tutor to make a high A in a high school course (even <<shudder :eek:=“”>> an AP course). Choose a different college. Love the kid ya got. As always, jmo.</shudder></p>

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<p>The very fact that so many of you “know” what other kids in your kids’ classes / schools are doing (being tutored, taking SAT’s multiple times, etc.) absolutely blows my mind. I don’t see what possible good such information does, other than make you crazy. </p>

<p>I have always lived by the perspective that other people’s kids aren’t my business or concern, and I couldn’t care less about the other kids in my kids’ school (other than in the generic sense of wishing them all well in whatever endeavors they choose). </p>

<p>Sorry, there is something extremely gossipy in my mind about “knowing” that Suzy in AP Chemistry actually took a high-level chemistry class in summer school, or that Billy took his SAT’s 5 times, or that Johnny has a Spanish tutor even though he’s getting an A in the class, or that Bobby is a double legacy at College X where his grandfather donated a million dollars. It is inconsistent with the values that I teach my kids, which is not to spend your time and effort worrying about what other people do, but just to put your head down and do your best.</p>

<p>What I know about my kids’ friends’ academic and EC success is vague and general – Mary is good in math, Billy’s really good in soccer and the team went to state this year, Kathy likes to play the piano, and John wants to go to College X, the kinds of things that might come up in casual conversation. I would never think to “absorb” any more detail or spend any time ruminating about whether it’s all fair or unfair, any more than I’d bother “absorbing” what my neighbors paid for their new car or whether they can afford the vacation they just took. I think it’s really unseemly to bother with a lot of this. </p>

<p>And if you all were my neighbors / kids’ friends’ parents, I would think it was none of your damn business what my kids’ ACT / SAT / GPA were or what extracurriculars, summer programs and / or tutoring I paid or didn’t pay for. But I wouldn’t even see how you’d know, unless my kids blabbed it all over creation or you were nosy.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, in my experience both the kids and the parents concerned “blab” about these things. This isn’t hidden.</p>

<p>^^^ Why are you so mad? I thought everyone was being pretty civilized in this discussion… Anyhow, let me fill you in on how I knew about some of the tutoring/scores/grades etc. in my youngest son’s class. It was from the countless IM’s and emails he received from kids in his class saying “You’ll never finish #1. I’m taking one more AP class then you,” or “I got a perfect score on the ACT. What did you get?”, or “Did you get a B yet.” or “Damn, you’re in my class. You will ruin the curve.” What did my son do? Come downstairs to talk to me to which I said “Ignore all of it. It doesn’t matter and it isn’t your business. Just do your best and don’t worry about anyone else.” So I never set out to find out what anyone was doing. My son never told anyone his AP scores, his ACT scores, or his grades EVER. Maybe there are others like me out there. I couldn’t care one bit what others in my son’s class did or didn’t do, but I certainly didn’t like them gunning for my son throughout high school. I didn’t like them bugging him constantly about his grades or celebrating if he got a B on a test. You forget that some of these highly competitive children are raised by highly competitive and driven adults. This could explain some of their ridiculously rude behavior. In other words, I didn’t want to know but I did find out. I just say this to demonstrate another side to the story…</p>

<p>Most importantly, I am so glad to be done with it all. Youngest is in college and I am so done with all of this. To those still in the thick of it I say enjoy your children while you can. Help them be their best and accept their best. Love them. Have fun with them. Teach them. This time is so short, way too short to worry about whether they get an A or a B. They will be gone before you know it.</p>

<p>That’s how it is here, too, Queen’s Mom. It’s not a secret, and people talk about it to be helpful. Parents will send out e-mails to get carpool partners for the summer class at CC so that the kids can take math classes in advance of taking them at school for a grade, for example.</p>

<h1>194</h1>

<p>I think its worth while to understand what kind of society we live in. Otherwise we are vulnerable to those who defend the distribution of rewards in society as somehow mandated by God or nature. We would be unable to challenge the status quo.</p>

<p>I do not believe that all challenges to the status quo or class structure of our society are driven by envy or resentment. But thats just me.</p>

<p>“That’s one place where some folks mis-interpret the process of elite admissions. In my estimation, the commonly discussed elite schools (non-tech) want both social skills and the academic chops…and usually get them.It’s not an either/or proposition. They don’t accept many academic middling performers. They don’t want test-taking dolts and dullards who just stay in their dorm room and study, either. They want active participants in the life of the college in all its facets. So, yeah. EC’s count a lot at elite schools.”</p>

<h1>193,</h1>

<p>You missed my point. I’m not talking about academically middling kids or kids who stay in their rooms studying all the time. </p>

<p>My issue with the emphasis on the use of ECs and interviews/oral chats is that it privileges well-off kids who have the finances and leisure time to pursue those ECs and polish their “gift of gab” at the expense of introverts and less well-off students who have to work 20+ hours/week to help support their family. </p>

<p>According to a relative who worked admissions at an Ivy, they are aware of this very issue and do try to take that into account when they evaluate candidates for admission so the kid with fewer/no ECs because s(he) has to work 20+ hour workweeks to support his/her working-class/lower-middle class family won’t be penalized as much. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, she did admit that the process was not foolproof when I asked her about all the well-off “gift of gab” kids I encountered in my undergrad and at two Ivy campuses who ended up floundering or even flunking once they started college because their “gift of gab” wasn’t enough to overcome their lack of initiative, work ethic, and/or surprisingly…academic underpreparation. </p>

<p>What’s more sad was I made good money off of some of those very kids so they could at least passably graduate after they waited too long to ask for help.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, in Silicon Valley there is even publicity on (rather shabbily produced) solicitation fliers (for cram schools/tutoring places) showing recent client HS students’ names, their HSs, SAT, AP etc scores, and lists of university offers! I remember when these were handed out at our public high school on the first day of school when my first kid started there as a freshman. (I doubt the school realized this commercial solicitation was occurring)
What’s more, a lot of kids openly state their stats on their facebooks! Really, peers are well-informed, whether they like it or not (if they are in the more challenging HS courses - in that peer group-). I agree it is vulgar over-sharing of personal information (and I wonder how accurate, sometimes)
I will conclude now. My kids are taking very good degrees and all this is past us. They were distressed to a degree by the practices that surrounded them back here.
I do think there are victims out there in these uber-competitive times (honest, striving HS students) and I feel for them.</p>